Fascist Educators

[MMMMMM]

In a "pretty good" column (believe it or not;-)), Ann Coulter catalogues educators' censorship of and assault on Christianity, all the while they support celebrations and expressions of other religious faiths.

This isn't small potatoes either: here catalogued are some nearly unbelievable censorships and restrictions placed by educators on their students:

A few excerpts:

"In a public school in St. Louis, a teacher spotted the suspect, fourth-grader Raymond Raines, bowing his head in prayer before lunch. The teacher stormed to Raymond's table, ordered him to stop immediately and sent him to the principal's office. The principal informed the young malefactor that praying was not allowed in school. When Raymond was again caught praying before meals on three separate occasions, he was segregated from other students, ridiculed in front of his classmates, and finally sentenced to a week's detention...

...In another display of tolerance at Lynn Lucas Middle School, school administrators snatched three students' books with covers displaying the Ten Commandments, ripped the covers off, threw them in the garbage, and told the students that the Ten Commandments constituted "hate speech."...

...After the massacre at Columbine High School, students and families were invited to paint tiles above student lockers. The school district had taken all reasonable precautions, immediately deploying an army of secular "grief counselors" with teddy bears to descend on the school after the attack. Nonetheless, some students painted their tiles with "objectionable" messages, such as: "4/20/99: Jesus Wept" and "God Is Love." This would not stand: The school removed 90 tiles with offending religious messages...

...Not all mentions of religion constitute "hate speech." In Tupelo, Miss., school administrators methodically purged all Christmas carols of any religious content – and then led the children in a chant of: "Celebrate Kwanzaa!" At Pattison Elementary school in Katy, Texas, Christmas songs are banned, but students are threatened with grade reductions for refusing to sing songs celebrating other religious faiths.

In New York City, the chancellor of the Department of Education prohibited the display of Nativity scenes in public schools, while expressly allowing the Jewish menorah and the Islamic star and crescent to be displayed...

...Between issuing laws prohibiting discrimination against transgendered individuals and running up a $38 billion deficit, the California Legislature mandated a three-week immersion course in Islam for all seventh-graders. A "crash course" in Islam, you might call it, if that weren't so ironic. Students are required to adopt Muslim names, plan a trip to Mecca, play a jihad game, pray to "Allah, the Compassionate" and to chant "Praise to Allah! Lord of Creation!" They are encouraged to dress in Muslim garb. Students are discouraged, however, from stoning girls at the school dances, abusing their "Jew" math teachers or blowing up their classmates...

...A popular student textbook, "Across the Centuries," treats the Inquisition and Salem witch-hunts as typical of Christianity, but never gets around to mentioning the Muslims' conquest of Spain, the Battle of Tours, or the execution of Jews in Qurayza. Or 9-11. (end excerpt)

M's comments:

The 1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Just what part of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" do these facsist educators not understand? The 1st Amendment clearly protects the free exercise of religion.

Also, just what part of "or abridging the freedom of speech" do they not understand?

On a related note: Far from being truly liberal, over the last few decades I believe the so-called liberal movement has actually come to embrace many fascist ideals and tactics. Many of today's "liberals" truly don't have the slightest clue what "liberal" really means. Hint: It doesn't mean "to control others."

[PuppetMaster]

I think your over reacting. Those are some isolated instances. Six people shot up their offices last year. Does that mean yyou should fear work?

I just got out of highschool and experienced the exact opposite, if you questioned christianity the teachers had it in for you. Then again I live in the ignorant south.

[MMMMMM]

I think I may have overreacted too, at least in tone. However I do think these are serious issues.

[PuppetMaster]

The truth is that freedom of speech in America is the biggest joke in the world. The president only has scripted news conferences. You would think that someone besides congress should be able to ask the president a question every now and then. For example, poverty levels fell each year for over a decade and now have risen the past two years in a row. Unemployment is higher than hell and economists are seriously worried about deflation.

[HDPM]

Needless to say if I were a parent of a California 7th grader, there would be some problems with his or her participation in the Muslim bit. No public school teacher will force my child to answer to a religious name not of their choosing, pray, play jihad, etc... I would ban that behavior as to any religion. IF true, the requirements of that class violate the civil rights of the children and constitute child abuse. Teachers should be sued and prosecuted for following the plan, even if the legislature mandates uit. "Just following orders" is not an excuse to the deliberate brainwashing of children and violation of religious freedom the last time I checked. Any teacher who forces a child to do those things should never be allowed to teach again.

Again, IF the story is true, it is probably abusive to send a child to a California public school. If this kind of thing is going on, I can only imagine the stuff the collectivists that dominate education think up on their own without help from the legislature. Parents in Cal. probably have a duty to send their kids to private school or home school them. You just can't allow them to go to schools where this kind of torture and reeducation goes on.

[Chris Alger]

"In a public school in St. Louis, a teacher spotted the suspect, fourth-grader Raymond Raines, bowing his head in prayer before lunch. The teacher stormed to Raymond's table, ordered him to stop immediately and sent him to the principal's office. The principal informed the young malefactor that praying was not allowed in school. When Raymond was again caught praying before meals on three separate occasions, he was segregated from other students, ridiculed in front of his classmates, and finally sentenced to a week's detention..."

What kind of rube would believe such a thing? I haven't even looked into this and I'm sure it's a lie. After all, preventing children from any demonstration of prayer in school is a first amendment violation.

[MMMMMM]

Well maybe I'm a rube then because it seems eminently plausible to me;-)

How about the other incidents related in the column? Do they all seem impossible?

The entire column is on the home page right now of http://www.anncoulter.com

[Cyrus]

You would be well advised to read most everything that Ann Coulter writes with apprehension, if at all. I doubt her sources, dispute her assertions and dismiss her opinions, as so much junk.

Case in point, the bit about compulsory education of Islam in California: it's not as exciting as she makes it to be. California women aren't taking up the chador any time soon! Check out the refutation (http://www.snopes.com/religion/islam.htm) of that false alarm.

As to educators getting carried away in their quest for political correctness or "cultural diversity" (when I hear those words, I reach for the revolving door), I do not doubt for a moment that they are many, in America, and that they do stupid things -- often. Stupid and dangerous.

[Cyrus]

"Well maybe I'm a rube because it seems eminently plausible to me."

Turns out it's just more Ann Coulter junk.

(At least she is recycling old junk (http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/gingrich.htm). Good for the environment.)

[MMMMMM]

Well even that linked article you provided contained criticisms of the course segment in question, though it does sound less alarming that what Coulter portrayed.

I've read of other incidents too recently: a town which banned Christmas Nativity scenes but let other faiths have their scenes and songs, and of other incidents in education. Maybe I should have posted those links at that time instead of this one now. Anyway even if she over-portrayed one incident, there are other incidents.

If the PC-fascists are just longing to ban something, let them ban banning, how's that?

I think all public schools should be required to teach a full course on the US Constitution, in which students must memorize every Amendment in the Bill of Rights, discuss them, read of their history and key related subsequent court opinions, write related essays, and take tests which are strictly fact-based. My own knowledge of this subject is quite spotty but some kids (and adults) probably don't have even have the foggiest. Maybe if Schwarzenegger is elected Governor of California he could advise parents to force their kids to write essays the way his father made him write essays, instead of letting them lollygag in front of the TV for 6 hours every day.

By the way, Thomas Sowell wrote an excellent column explaining the real reason for the racial gaps in school performance in the USA. I'll start a new thread on this.

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus, she listed several examples in that column. You are wrong to dismiss all the examples because one may have been over-portrayed. T

[Cyrus]

M,

My two-line post was not about refuting all of Coulter's wild claims. (I would need a one-line post for that. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

My post was about you being a rube. As you may recall, and as Chris Alger put it, only a rube would fall for that particular story (http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/gingrich.htm) . It appears that you did!

Enjoy the status. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

--Cyrus

[Chris Alger]

Why would anyone waste time and reward dishonesty by reading such junk? Ann Coulter is a liar with a liar's contempt for her audience and you have helped vindicate her perception. Notice that this story is 9 years old, and that the court case it generated has almost certainly been resolved, allowing Coulter to simply call the parties to find out what happened. Yet she doesn't even acknowledge that the preposterous events she promulgates are even disputed.

The real story here is not about religious freedom, its about the consistent dishonesty of right-wing propaganda and the ignorance and stupidity of those that create the market for it.

[Chris Alger]

Also found this from the LA Times, 12/25/94, on some blog:

"But school officials said the incident never happened. Rather, they said, Raymond was disciplined for fighting in the cafeteria.

'I can tell you he was not reprimanded for praying,' said Kenneth Brostron, the school's lawyer. 'Do you think it makes sense that the teachers would look around the cafeteria and target the one student who was praying quietly at his seat?'

Calling the report that Raymond was caught praying 'absolutely not true,' school Principal Cleveland Young said: 'How would I even know about something like that?'"

[MMMMMM]

Look, Chris, there have been lots of other reports on similar things. You're ignoring the bigger picture due to one column or columnist.

[MMMMMM]

So you are the bigger rube if you ignore the larger picture. EVERY anecdote in that story could be false and that wouldn't change the fact that there have been many other reports along detailing similar incidents.

Your position (or should I say Chris Alger's position) is as dumb as seizing on one little thing in the intelligence report and saying it was all hooey. Never mind that there have been many other similar reports by other intelligence agencies for many years regarding Saddam's attempts. And never mind the other reports of educator fascism. If one report is wrong, they're all nonsense, right?

[MMMMMM]

Look, Cyrus, I'll concede that I was being very rube-like to use one of her columns without checking out the facts first. But you must realize that there are a great many such reports and that even if quite a few are to be discounted, there is still a significant problem with fascist attitudes among educators and with speech codes in state-run schools. Just because it is "liberal" in orientation doesn't make it any better; these are still fascist practices.

[Chris Alger]

"there have been lots of other reports on similar things"

Of course there have been "lots of reports" that are "similar" to Coulter's silly fabrication. Right-wing paranoids and conspiracy theorists blog and email them for each other all the time. They thrive among the ignorant and credulous. Your notion that sheer quantity somehow makes them credibile makes no more sense than "millions of Nazis can't be wrong!"

The only "big picture" here is the orgy of idiocy that passes itself off as "conservatism." Just try finding a left-wing columnist with a record of fabrication and slander and the ability to sell books and generate publicity (and money) that's comparable to Coulter's. Indeed, just try finding a single left wing article anywhere that reports these "alligators-in-the-sewers-style" urban legends as fact. There are intelligent, articulate and honest writers on the right, but the right also has a near-monopoly on outright lying.

(Watch. Somebody will try to pin this tag on Robt. Scheer but won't come up with anything remotely comparable.)

[MMMMMM]

Are you saying that all the reports like that I've read...maybe 6 articles in total, each containing perhaps 2-4 examples--over the last 6 months or so--are ALL urban legends? Well it could be, I guess, but it would seem rather amazing if such a thing were so.

[John Cole]

M,

Yes, it is a serious problem. A good teacher might have thought, correctly, the child mouthing words might have been reading, and this should have alerted the teacher that perhaps the child had reading difficulties. Remember that the first time St. Augustine saw someone read without moving the lips, it caused an epiphany for him. Reading, of course, was a rather new skill in those days.

John

PS. Ya gotta stop wading through this Coulter crap.

[andyfox]

Assuming they're not all urban legends, they still mean nothing. This is the Ronald Reagan view of the world. Take a country of hundreds millions of people, publicize a few anecdotes that are unusual and not symptomatic of life, and claim that this shows how rotten things have gotten in Denmark.

[Cyrus]

I think there exists indeed a quite frightening mindframe among lots of academics today in America. No, not the corporate mentality that so many universities have adopted willy-nilly, treating human knowledge and education as just another commodity. That is for another thread.

The danger is with censorship and with the propensity towards what is called (inaccurately) political correctness. Academia, with "the best intentions", stiffles speech often enough in America to consider this as being a danget to society.

But, two things:

1. It doesn't pay to cry wolf over silly-ass claims such as you did with that lunatic Ann Coulter's. Raising a legitimate issue, i.e. the American academia's PCness, over a false or exaggerated excuse can defeat the purpose. Ergo, don't be a rube.

2. A liberal is (or, rather, should be) someone who instictively, consistently sides with the cause of freedom. In other words, a practice such as that of forbidding a person to exercise his right of expression (e.g. dissenting from the patriotic majority; praying in school; etc) is and should be antithetical to the very notion of liberalism. This should be the opposite of liberalism, by definition! I am amused when so-called conservatives defend the right of corporations to battle the conservation of our environment. I am apalled when so-called liberals act against notions of liberty of the individual.

"...seizing on one little thing in the intelligence report and saying it was all hooey. Never mind that there have been many other similar reports by other intelligence agencies for many years regarding Saddam's attempts."

Do you really wanna bring Iraq in this? /images/graemlins/grin.gif The market's very bearish on that 'un, right now.

--Cyrus

[Cyrus]

"I think all public schools should be required to teach a full course on the US Constitution, in which students must memorize every Amendment in the Bill of Rights, discuss them, read of their history and key related subsequent court opinions, write related essays, and take tests which are strictly fact-based."

I'm surprised they do not already go into such stuff.

(As to the bit about "memorising" every Amendment, why do you want to punish the American snots? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Discussing and understanding the issues behind the Constitution is an equivalent exercise. I bet you never sat down to "memorize" those texts, yet you should be able to recite the relevant portions of the relevant Amendments. This has happened by the familiarisation that is brought about by studying a text -- not learning by rote.)

"...a town which banned Christmas Nativity scenes but let other faiths have their scenes and songs."

Are you seriously suggesting that there is some anti-Christian conspiracy afoot in America? Come on. If anything, the Christian Fundamendalists are taking over everywhere in the United States. They are more dangerous than any PC idiot in Berkeley.

The story itself about the nativity scene is somewhat inaccurate, in effect. You will find that it is supported by such hysterical organisations as the American Family Organisation (http://www.afa.net/journal/february/2003/noi.asp), whose website warns us against many other "grave dangers", such as frequent and diverse sexual activity (scroll down the page, it's under Culture), a claim easily debunked by the American Social Health Association (http://www.ashastd.org/stdfaqs/hpv.html).

Bottom line: Some teachers go over-board when promoting diversity. They should be checked. The American Christian Right is on a rampage. It should be checked, hard.

--Cyrus

PS : In case you wanna know the ACLU's position on religion and public schools, check it out here (http://archive.aclu.org/issues/religion/pr3.html).

[adios]

Can't help but notice the posters who entusiastically support the status quo in the public school systems.

[Cyrus]

"You're onto oomething here, M. Can't help but notice the posters who entusiastically support the status quo in the [American] public school systems."

Where and who wrote in "support" of that ??

I wrote that most of what Ann Coulter wrote is, as usual, garbage. Chris Alger correctly disputed an Ann Coulter howler. And John Cole warned M, in general, to stay away from "Ann Coulter crap". So, unless I missed something, you are imagining things!

(Not only that, but you missed the part where I strongly condemned the many idiotic practices of teachers in universities and public schools in the U.S. today.)

[MMMMMM]

[John Cole]

Tom,

You may not take this seriously, but let me try to give you a little insight into what you believe "liberal" or "radical" educators really do worry about. My greatest fear as an educator is that I represent a certain ideological stance towards students; that is, I am part of an educational system that replicates unjust social conditions conditions in the classroom. As the voice of authority, then, I, consciously or unconsciously, maintain a kind of order. Indeed, because I work for a community college, I must be more concerned about this. Our administration, believe it or not, continually invokes student performance (read responsibility) and the demands of the marketplace in its philosophy. The administration only barely stops short of telling us our job is to produce good McDonald's workers or docile bodies.

One way I might become complicit in this philosophy is through a censoring of speech. (And because I do teach writing and speech this matters to me.) Often, I don't like what students say. I've encountered homophobic and rascist speech. I've run into white supremecists and encountered all sorts of morally repugnant (to me) arguments. I have heard students defend the most barbaric of cultural practices. Never, not once, have I censored, in any way, what the students have said. But, each time, I have demanded that these students investigate and think about what and why they say what they say. (I have told students, though, that I do find some speech morally repugnant.)

I have encountered the worst offender of all--the born again Christian. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Just last week one student wrote that she wanted to live her life in such a way that all people would see God working through her. I objected to what she wrote, but certainly not to censor her. I objected that I would not see God working through her because I would not see God working through anyone. At first, she took this as censorship, but, eventually, she rethought her statement on logical grounds rather than emotional ones. Even still, though, I worry that she may back away from some ideas because she believes that I censored her writing.

Whenever I comment and respond to students, I try to consider my role and my prejudices. It's not always easy. Most students really don't say much at all at the beginning because they have been taught, I think, it's futile. Whenever I read a paper full of cliches, verities, and truisms, I want to scream--and often do--Say Something. Don't settle for this crap. Don't be a docile body waiting for me to work on you.

I encounter many students who are already so jaded, so mistreated, so victimized by years of school that they are afraid to voice opinions of any kind. And it hasn't been PCness in high school that has done it to them. They have been mostly screwed into going along to get along for so long that they can see no other way.

Every good liberal educator I have ever met considers these questions and problems. How can we be both part of a sytem and work against its sometimes debilitating effects? Do we merely reproduce what students have already encountered in almost every arena of their lives? These questions do not have easy answers, Tom. But we do think about them and take them seriously.

John

[brad]

essay i wrote for gf who turned in something late. heh. a high class fu with comedy that teacher surely missed cause no doubt semi-(mis)educated /images/graemlins/smile.gif paras messed up in copy/paste btw

--------------------------------

Why I write such late papers

"There are so many days that have not yet broken." -- Rig Veda

When you say to me, why do you write such late papers?, are you fully aware of what such an answer entails? Are you rich enough for such an answer, such a noble answer, or do you simply content yourself with the trenchant excuse, offered as though an aside? There is a depth to all profound spirits that those who are not used to such sculptured forms find villianous, as if one in following a companion has suddenly realized the path has wended onto a dangerous mountain precipice; and looking in fright for support, one finds the companion revelling in the sheer joy of the high mountain peaks. What is vertigo for these rare climbers if not a triumph in the possibilities of mastery? And of consequences?
And so to these scalers, who would weigh up terror -- and having found it wanting -- laugh; to what would you, who impart to such a sound a wholly different character, what could you gain from such an experience? For up here, in the rarified air, sounds have a wholly different meaning, a meaning from above.
Have you heard? There are so many of OUR days which have not yet broken, there are so many rich hued dawns which await only the eternal yes to awaken.
And if our paths, those narrow, tortuous mountain trails do not bode well for commerce? If our way would be the slip and the ruin of those well oiled multitudes of traders? What of it, to we spirits who have BECOME free; what do we lose on our descent by lingering on that last peak, by seeing the last time as if for the first time that golden bowl going gladly under, being swallowed up within the frosty mountain peaks where such as we need not needlessly suffer ...
And if only then, coming down, the horizon suddenly gone, we find ourselves under, only then do we check our pockets -- if only then is our gaze and our thought gently nuzzled from the ruddy azure sky -- if only then do we realize we are on the way down, if only then we realize -- look out!-- what of it?
If we lofty spirits, we anti-idealists, we who require the windswept granite and the soulbiting cold, if we require a brief sojourn apart, a sojourn above the hum drum no numb saying shrieking of the peddlers, if we require a brief respite to renew the tearful embracing of our souls, what can such a common delay be to we who have given to the pinnacles we have dared to behold -- even our very blood!

"After a great victory. -- What is best about a great victory is that it rids the victor of fear of defeat. 'Why not also lose for once?' he says to himself; 'now I am rich enough for that.'" -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Die Frueliche Wissenschaft

[John Cole]

Brad,

My comment: Even visionaries need deadlines!

[BruceZ]

In other words, it was a powder day.

[brad]

hey i wasnt late. btw it recieved no comment heh

[MMMMMM]

John, I certainly and truly would not think of you as a "fascist" educator/images/graemlins/grin.gif My concern is regarding those who set PC-policies and speech codes; or who stifle free speech under the guise of forbidding "hate speech"--when "hate speech" can be conveniently expanded to include many things the policy-setters simply don't approve of (instead of merely refering to a very few well-known derogatory racist appellations); and to any infringements of the right of the individual to freedom of religious practice or expression.

On a related but separate note, I question the entire notion of "social injustice" as it is commonly regarded. To me, social injustice is primarily such things as inequality before the law or state discrimination. The racist laws in the Old South were social injustice. Inequality of income, however, is not social injustice. If there are laws preventing a poor person from working hard and studying and attempting to elevate their position through diligence, I would consider those laws to be socially unjust. However the mere existence of economic inequality is not IMO social injustice.

Why do I think this? Well, for a number of reasons. Just looking at the universe, it is clear that imbalance exists nearly everywhere. From the human realm to the animal kingdom, great imbalances exists. Different individuals AND different groups very rarely produce the same results. It is probably a fallacy to presume that different groups--by this I mean composed of elements with some differing attributes--should produce the same results. Even the mere fact that cultures are so different almost ensures the production of different results even if everything else were identical between groups.

I'm not discounting the fact that some low-income familes with children to support are facing a great burden and uphill struggle which can make it extremely hard for them to rise economically, or that extreme poverty can adversely affect studies, work, etc.--and that perhaps some allowance or aid should be given in cases of extreme poverty. But since ensuring equality of results is well-nigh impossible, I think the best thing we can do is to ensure equality of rights. Also, I think attempts to ensure equality of results generally fail abysmally. The world just doesn't seem to work that way, no matter how much we would like for it to.

[Cyrus]

"...our job is to produce good McDonald's workers or docile bodies."

There was an article in LRB recently about the BBC. The House of Lords saved once more the broadcaster from "the market forces". In passing, it made good points about the role of education in a society and how the greatest danger comes from treating it as just another commodity and from allowing "market forces" to dictate how we learn about the world we live in. We are as far from Plato as we can be.

Overall, excellent insight, John. Thanks for sharing.

[brad]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/25/national/main575005.shtml


...

"This was not an issue about free speech," Tim Moore, director of the SMU student center, said in a story for Thursday's edition of The Dallas Morning News. "It was really an issue where we had a hostile environment being created."

...

"My reaction was disgust because of the ignorance of some SMU students," said Houston, who is black. "They were arguing that affirmative action was solely based on race. It's not based on race. It's based on bringing a diverse community to a certain organization."

[MMMMMM]

No comment? It wasn't graded "N" for Nonsense?

[MMMMMM]

Apparently some people can't handle the Truth.

Obviously the scaled prices were an attempt to ensure that the less represented and economically disadvantaged groups would still purchase a reasonable share of the cookies. In this way, vital diversity within the group of cookie-purchasers could be assured without having to resort to quotas.

[brad]

u have 2 be educated to realize style in which it was written (threw in quote at end for that reason)

[brad]

of course. heh

but i like 2nd qoute. imagine he'll be cps or something

[MMMMMM]

I wasn't talking about style, brad;-)

[brad]

allusion to movie of lightning guy?

[brad]

well it has a clear message

[HDPM]

First I saw a John Cole movie last night. It is called Respiro. I viewed it as a slow moving but kind of enjoyable incestuous romp through mental illness in an Italian fishing village. I think more knowledgeable observes might view it differnetly, although one reviewer called it "small."

On to the post:

"I encounter many students who are already so jaded, so mistreated, so victimized by years of school that they are afraid to voice opinions of any kind. And it hasn't been PCness in high school that has done it to them. They have been mostly screwed into going along to get along for so long that they can see no other way."


Bravo. Part of my post below in response to the original post shows what I think of education in this country. I posted based on my assumption that what Coulter said was true (big assumption) but I am also prepared to believe about anything bad about education. Because of my own experiences, observations, and events I know to be true. Our education system grinds kids up.

I hated about every minute of school until I got to college where there was more freedom. Before that I went to a private school that is considered to be excellent and truly liberal. Sure there is some mild political garbage, moreso now, but it is not a really big deal. And it isn't religious. Then I went to a public inner city high school with a separate set of problems. There sure wasn't time to force students to believe a certain way and the teachers really didn't care about some political agenda. However, the basic structure of how we organize schools guarantees problems.
Essentially, what Prof. Cole said about training mcDonalds workers is true. Our school system came of age in the industrial era where somewhat educated, socialized, and compliant workers were prized. And our schools are modeled accordingly. Even the little private school I went to suffered from the problem. After all, the teachers are trained to teach the same way. Classes are organized the same way. Curricula are similar but perhaps more challenging and students come across certain material earlier in a good school than in a bad one. But what goes on is about the same.

The problem is education is always education of an individual. But industrial systems aren't good at catering to certain individual needs. Basic products can be delivered pretty well and thereby improve the lives of individuals. But when it comes to providing something a little outside the norm there are problems. Most schools are designed to teach average people average things. ANd there is a very heavy socializing effect that is geared toward average people. Not all of which is caused by teachers of course. Special education kids have problems in the system, despite more recent efforts at improving special ed. And kids at the top have problems. I would guess everybody who posts here fits in the top few % of the school system and had some problems because of it.

I have no idea what the answer is. Ideally, every individual could have a custom educational program. But how do you accomplish that? Homeschooling is troublesome, as I know I am smarter than most home school parents and I know I am totally incompetent to teach a child at home. Sure I could supplement a kids education, but I don't have the right skills to be a full time home teacher. And I suspect few parents who home school do. Private schools mitigate some of the problems of public schools, but share them in many cases. And of course if there is religious affiliattion in the private school a host of new problems arises.

Anyway, I think new technologies bring new hope. The internet will make it possible to learn many things from experts and skilled teachers at a relatively low price. If we figure out how to use it fully. But we will still be fighting the traditional idea of herding kids into classrooms with about 30 other brats with one poorly educated teacher and making them behave a certain way. Not an ideal system. It has done a good job at certain things I suppose, but is inherently flawed and limited.

Higher education is much better. Then you get some profs like Cole and a more mature setting.

[BruceZ]

No, powder as in deep, soft, fluffy snow that falls in the mountains. Out west, a lot of the businesses and schools shut down so people can go skiing. The rest call in sick. Interesting movie though.

[ACPlayer]

Odd conclusion.

I have seen nothing in this thread about "enthusiastically support the status quo in public schools".

[ACPlayer]

I have told students, though, that I do find some speech morally repugnant

Hi Tom,

Reading your note I was struck by the above phrase. In your view as an educator, how do you weigh the line between a person in "authority" telling someone in a learners role that something is repugnant and moving into censorship?

Clearly the words have been written and will be read by you, herself and possibly her class. So the question of censorship as in transmission of the information to a third party is a mute point. However, injecting the morality of the authority figure may, either prevent her from exploring something that is interesting to her, or worse, exploring it behind the backs of the teachers and parents.

It seems to me that if there is some "objectionable" writings, it may actually be more interesting to the class (depending on their maturity, I suppose) to have a true debate on the subject and bringing it out in the air. Seems to me that nobody debates anymore (but instead advocates, and there is big difference) and one contributing factor could be that there is an attempt to impose morality (whether by parents, teachers, or atty generals).

[John Cole]

I don't try to conceal my thinking from students; instead, I will openly assert that I am interested, as opposed to disinterested. I agree that voicing my opinion about a student's ideas may seem and feel like censorship, but I am, in essence, offering my opinion on what has been written or said. One student said that she didn't like living in Florida because, in her words, "too many spics lived there." I said that I thought such thinking repugnant. I did not, however, do anything more than voice my opinion about what was said. Although I am the teacher, I am also a member of the class, and I have the right, too, to state my views.

John