10-25 Pot Limit Holdem Hand

[Riverman]

Fired up pot limit holdem game in the aftermath of the WPT. We have one WSOP bracelet who is trying to bully the table with an obcenely large stack (10-15k). He was not involved in this hand but he had loosened up the table considerably. 4 limpers to me, I call in the cutoff with 77. SB folds and BB raises to 100. He likes to build pots with a wide range of hands. $500 in the pot for a 10 7 6 flop with 2 hearts. All check to me. How much should I bet and why?

[Robk]

What are the stack sizes? I think this calls for a massive bet.

[sam h]

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How much should I bet and why?

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You should bet as much as you can, which would be 500 - assuming you're not playing a tiny stack.

Hopefully, the strength of your holding will be somewhat disguised, as you are in steal position. So you may get some action from hands that you want to call, like JT, and you make draws pay to see the turn. If you take it down, that's good too.

[nicky g]

"If you take it down, that's good too."

It's not really that good - calling a raise with a medium pocket pair relies on impled odds for profit. If you regularly call $100 with sevens and only win $500 dollars when you hit, you're going to lose all your money. Of course, it's a lot better than letting opponents in cheaply and losing both the pot and more money. I'd bet the maximum too; dangerous board, and a lot of opponents - you'll probably get a t least one call, and maybe check-raised.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
"If you take it down, that's good too."

It's not really that good - calling a raise with a medium pocket pair relies on impled odds for profit. If you regularly call $100 with sevens and only win $500 dollars when you hit, you're going to lose all your money.

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You're a real "half-empty" kind of guy, eh? Of course, he would not call the $75 (not $100, because he had already called the $25), just hoping to win $500 if he hits. But once you have hit on a well-coordinated board, you should be happy to take it down right there. He could be behind to a straight already, and he is not that much ahead of someone with a straight and flush draw.

Whenever someone calls you, unless they are drawing totally dead, they are getting some equity from the money that you put into the pot at the same time that you are getting equity from the money that they put in. Even if you are gaining more equity than they are, you often show more profit by getting 100% equity in the money that is already in the pot, which is what happens when they fold.

[nicky g]

"He could be behind to a straight already, and he is not that much ahead of someone with a straight and flush draw. "

Those hands aren't particularly likely though, are they? You can't want everyone to fold just because you don't have the unbeatable nuts. Isn't he better off getting a caller who's making a big mistake eg someone who calls a pot size bet on the flop and again on the turn with just a flush draw, for example, than everyone folding? From very quick calculations I'd have thought that would give him greater equity. Obviously geting called by someone with top pair is great. I sort of agree with what you're saying here but in general, drawing to a set and hoping to take it down on the flop if it comes with suited connectors deosn't seem like great poker to me. It's also worth remebering that you're set is much more likely to get action on a coordinated flop than on a J62 type flop;, where you often are just going to take it down and not get your implied odds. But I definitely agree that you should be the max here with this flop; I wasn't trying to argue against that. So either way your action is clear; hoping for people to call or fold is a bit irrelevant.

[Zag]

But I definitely agree that you should be the max here with this flop; I wasn't trying to argue against that. So either way your action is clear; hoping for people to call or fold is a bit irrelevant.

In this, we totally agree.

However, I'd be a lot happier with a bunch of folds than with a check-raise. What would you do if one of the people before you check-raised with a pot-sized raise?

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
calling a raise with a medium pocket pair relies on impled odds for profit.

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Oh really? I thought the sevens would be good unimproved.
Couldn't you tell from my post?

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If you regularly call $100 with sevens and only win $500 dollars when you hit, you're going to lose all your money.

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Oh, so that's how I'm losing all my money. Thanks Nicky!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I just don't see the reason for your response - other than to make a simplistic point in a pedantic manner. Later on in the thread you said that "hoping for people to call or fold is a bit irrelevant," so what exactly is your point?

[Riverman]

I wanted to give the draws incorrect odds. If a flush card hits on the turn I will have a tough decision (and the players in this game are guaranteed to put me to the test). For this reason, I bet 350 and was not called. I like the bet size but just wanted some feedback. Thanks to those who replied.

[nicky g]

Jeez. All I was saying is that if this sequence keeps happening on the long run, you won't do that well out of it. If you're only going to get action here from someone with a better hand than trips, you're in the wrong game; you still have to make a post-flop profit with sets on scary boards to do well out of them. You're not sorry for the sarcasm or you wouldn't have written it. My point, exactly, is that if the best possible outcome of flopping a set is taking the pot down on the flop, then there's little point of drawing to a set, or indeed playing at all. Taking it down is better than getting called and losing, as I said. But I don't think, given the strength of your hand, it can be described as "good". Sorry if such a minor point is not worthy of your time.

Zag: obviously a check-raise would not make you happy; it'd give you tough decision. Clearly you would rather everyone folded than you got check-raised, unless you had reason to think you were still ahead (eg the check-raiser is a maniac). But like I say, if the opposition is such that you're only going to get any action here if you're losing, why play? If you can't make post-flop money here, when are you going to make it? When you flop trip aces over trip kings? Sitting around hoping for that kind of situation is just gambling.