The Gamblor Peace Plan - Fire Away!

[Gamblor]

1) Palestinian government that does NOT include Yasser Arafat. Arafat cannot be there, period. Not as a symbolic leader, not in his current capacity as the head of the whole pile of piss. The man has proven time and time again he is not to be trusted, ever. With Arafat, so the Palestinian government and legislative council (basically the PLO) should be gone. The new Palestinian leadership must be closely supervised by the US and/or the international community. If Arafat truly wants what is best for the Palestinian people he will accept this. However, he is more concerned with selfish interests - i.e. power but no responsibility, martyrdom but no death, etc.

2) The new leadership must call for and enforce the end of Palestinian terrorism. Obviously the terror groups won't simply obey the new government, but the first test for the new Palestinian leadership. If it can't control the Hamas, Fateh Tanzim, Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades there is no reason for Israel even bother talking to them.

3) Israel should evacuate all the illegal outposts and withdrawal to September 28, 2000 lines (preintifada). Illegal outposts, whatever ideology they are rooted in, are against government policy and should be evacuated - not symbolically evacuated, actually evacuated. This goodwill gesture would be perceived as so by the Palestinians and the rest of the world. The IDF can withdrawal, as well as return, to this lines in a matter of a few hours. If the cease fire is enforced by the Palestinians over their radicals the plan continues. If not, the IDF goes back in.

4) After months of no terrorism, interim negotiations a la Oslo can begin. In the end, most of the settlements will be dismantled. The biggest ones like Ariel near the Green Line have around 80% of the settler population: This is to be annexed by Israel, as well as those of Jewish religious significance such as Hevron, Jericho, and full access to the Dead Sea. In return the Palestinian should be given equal amount of land from Israel. Possible locations include areas with large Israeli Arab populations such as Umm el Fahem, etc. This will reduce the number of Arabs inside the state of Israel and will help keep Israel Jewish.

6) The border between Israel and the Palestinian state will be fenced and heavily secured with gates, checkpoints, inspections. After a probation period, limited traffic will be allowed through for economic reasons. The new Palestinian state must be 100% demilitarized and under strict international supervision for at least 20-30 years.

7) Any violation of any of the provisions will result in immediate re"occupation" of the entire West Bank and Gaza, and immediate transfer of the Palestinian population outside the Jordan River

[Ray Zee]

great thoughts but no cigar buddy.

the palistinians would love any reasonable land for themselves but the terrorists amoung them will never quit until all jews are dead, or they are. so that has to be reconed with.

the israelis wont give up land as they have only a small wasteland for a country and want more land not less. so when they get some they are likely to hold on despite what they may say.
the best solution may be one where an outside entity puts the rules down and enforces them at all costs. which wont happen.

[Chris Alger]

The U.S. conditions all aid and trade with Israel on its withdrawal of all military and security forces from all areas beyond the Green Line, including East Jersusalem, and to tear down the wall. The U.S. further requires Israel and the PA to unconditionally recognize the national right of Jews and Palestinians to a homeland and sovereign state in the former Palestine.

Once those are accomplished, the parties agree to largely open borders and a UN-monitored mutual ceasefire, including the end of all targeted killings and violence against civilians anywhere. As long as the cease-fire holds, U.S./EU conditions all aid and support for Israel and the PA on the complete resolution, according to a fixed timetable, of all issues relating to borders, settlements, natural resources, sovereignty and refugees.

[nicky g]

"This is to be annexed by Israel, as well as those of Jewish religious significance such as Hevron, Jericho, and full access to the Dead Sea"

I see. And what's to happen to the populations of the Palestinian cities of Hebron and Jericho? Do they have a say in the matter?

[MMMMMM]

They get no say in anything until they dismantle their terror apparatus and cease all suicide bombings of innocents.

[nicky g]

So the entire Palestinian population should be punished. No distinction between civiilans and fighters. And they get their say after they've been kicked out of their homes and "transferred."

A question for you. If the occupation is all about Israel's security, why did it continue for 20 years with intifadah and no attacks on Israel coming from the Occupied Territories?

[MMMMMM]

I doubt there were "no" attacks during those 20 years, but I could be wrong.

Also most Palestinians today never even lived in Israel. Only a small percentage of those living today were actually kicked out of their homes and transferred.

[ACPlayer]

Instead of subjecting the Palestinian people to a genocide on the scale of WWII and the Jewish people to having to live with the history of the same (even if some dont mind, there are more Jews who probably do mind), I offer the following plan (at a minimum it should get rid off Yasser and Sharon,, which would rid the world of two terrorists):

1. The two presidents of the two "countries" be given six months to:

a. Formulate a peace plan
b. Offer the plan for a referendum
c. Have the referendum pass

If in six months they dont have a plan that passes, they are both publicly shot in the head. And another set of Presidents is elected and given the same responsibility.

If the plan fails, in that suicide bombings resume after the referendum then too they are both shot in the head (it takes just one incident).

This should begin the satiate those who prefer violent solutions, those who want Yasser killed, those who want Sharon killed, distract attention from the inhumanity in the killing fields, sometimes called the Holy Land.

[nicky g]

"I doubt there were "no" attacks during those 20 years, but I could be wrong."

There was no significant history of Palestinian violent resistance emenating from the Occupied Territories until after the start of the first intifadah in 1987. Palestinian terrorism was perpetrated by militants based outside of the former Palestine, in Europe and other Arab countries, by the refugees and descendants of the refugees who'd had to leave the ex-"Palestine"/"Greater Israel" altogether. The Occupied Territories became radicalised following the expansion of settlement activity and their realisation that the occupation was not temporary, and that the land was slowly being taken off them and settled by Israelis.

[Cyrus]

"[Israelis are] subjecting the Palestinian people to a genocide on the scale of WWII and the Jewish [have] to live with the history of the same (even if some dont mind, there are more Jews who probably do mind)."

There is a very large number of decent persons, Israelis and non-Israeli Jews, who have being quite vocal against the official Israeli policy. They are, unfortunately, the minority among Jews.

The most tragic aspect is that, in general, American Jews are actually more extremist than Israeli Jews on the issue of the Palestinians' future.

[MMMMMM]

Well what would you expect when most Palestinians support Hamas which is a genocidal fanatical terrorist group.

A fence is sorely needed. If Arafat can't contain the animals in his population a fence may have to be employed.

The average Palestinian can't really claim moderation as a fallback position because so many of them support Hamas.

[Gamblor]

Yasser and Sharon,, which would rid the world of two terrorists):

Sharon has never been implicated in the killing of innocents.

At worst, he has been implicated in not foreseeing the killing of innocents, which is very different. At Sabra and Shatila, as we have previously discussed, the IDF was not involved, but rather the CLA perpetrated this crime. The only blame Sharon can conceivably be labelled with is that he should have known the Christian Lebanese Army would go and murder the Palestinians. And even that is a stretch, considering it was the army of a foreign land.

Blaming Sharon for Sabra and Shatila is like blaming the parents for Columbine. Sure, they could have seen it coming, and should have been more involved in their kids lives, but they didn't send the kids to school with guns. How much can you control 17 year old kids or a Christian Army who's President you (the PLO) just murdered.

[nicky g]

"Sharon has never been implicated in the killing of innocents."


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha

[Cyrus]

Do you realize that you're now responding to imaginary posts?

Cyrus > "The most tragic aspect is that, in general, American Jews are actually more extremist than Israeli Jews on the issue of the Palestinians' future."

MMMMMM's "response" > "Well, what would you expect when most Palestinians support Hamas which is a genocidal fanatical terrorist group?"

Terrific. We should be seeing Humpty Dumpty in a minute.

[MMMMMM]

What I'm suggesting is that extremist positions amongst Jews might be neither unexpected nor unwarranted considering the widespread Palestinian support for the savagery of suicide bombing.

If you can produce Humpty Dumpty out of that, I'll buy you a Chesire Cat.

[Cyrus]

"What I'm suggesting is that extremist positions amongst Jews might be neither unexpected nor unwarranted considering the widespread Palestinian support for the savagery of suicide bombing."

You're still whistling Dixie. The question was about the difference between American and Israeli Jews. The American Jews are much more extremist in their views about Palestinians, even though it's Israeli Jews that bear the brunt of "the savagery of suicide bombings".

It's easier to be an extremist when all that is required is cheap posturing from afar --- only you will do any Humpty Dumpty number in order to duck the issue.

"If you can produce Humpty Dumpty out of that, I'll buy you a Chesire Cat."

You owe me a cat.

[Gamblor]

It's easier to be an extremist when all that is required is cheap posturing from afar --- only you will do any Humpty Dumpty number in order to duck the issue.

Doesn't that work the other way too?

Isn't it easy to take the moral high road and condemn Israeli actions when you're not a Jew trying to contemplate a history of Biblical floods, Egyptian Slavedrivers, Arab Invaders, Roman Imperialists, Greek Colonizers, European Crusaders and then KGB libelists, Nazi German exterminators, Arab Mujahedeen, then fighting through 6 wars against all of your next door neighbours, only to find out now they're going to try and get you from the inside?

[ QUOTE ]
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt


[/ QUOTE ]

[MMMMMM]

If I get you a Chesire Cat, though, don't be surprised if it vanishes. And I only agreed to a Chesire Cat.

[Cyrus]

"Isn't it easy to take the moral high road and condemn Israeli actions when you're not a Jew trying to contemplate a history of Biblical floods, Egyptian Slavedrivers, Arab Invaders, Roman Imperialists, Greek Colonizers, European Crusaders and then KGB libelists, Nazi German exterminators, Arab Mujahedeen, then fighting through 6 wars against all of your next door neighbours, only to find out now they're going to try and get you from the inside?"

You have quite a distorted view of History, my man. There is no nation that can claim the kind of continuity that you claim for the Israelis.

...And you still haven't answered the part about American Jews being much more extremist than Israeli Jews.

[Gamblor]

You have quite a distorted view of History, my man. There is no nation that can claim the kind of continuity that you claim for the Israelis.

Apparently you don't read a lot of Siddurim (Jewish Prayer books). 99% of the prayers therein are written before Zionism, most in fact in Midaeval times and ALL Jewish prayers list Jerusalem or Zion (hebrew word for Jerusalem) as the Jewish homeland.

No prayer book omits mention of Noah's flood, the exodus from slavery in Eqypt, Joshua's return to the Holy Land by defeating the Arabs who had settled at Jericho while the Israelites were in Egypt, Lag B'Omer as the celebration of the Bar Kochva revolt against the Roman Imperialists, the holiday of Chanukah as a celebration of the Maccabean revolt against Syrian/Greek king Antiochus etc. The Crusades, KGB, Nazis, Mujahedeen, Arab-Israeli wars, are all contemporary history.

A History of the Jews (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060915331/qid=1064514430/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-7719027-9834215)
Check out the table of contents.

And for good measure:
Gifts of the Jews: How a tribe of desert nomads changed the way everyone thinks and feels (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385482493/qid=1064515090/sr=1-61/ref=sr_1_61/103-7719027-9834215?v=glance&s=books)

I left out the Spanish Inquisition of 1492.

I claim all of this as Jewish History. The Israelis are the rebirth of that nation; see Zionism . And I 100% claim this as my nation's history. And there are 15 million on earth who agree with me. Pretty much every holiday has ended with the same prayer for a thousand years.
"L'Shana Ha'ba'a beYerushalayim".
"Next Year In Jerusalem"

And you still haven't answered the part about American Jews being much more extremist than Israeli Jews.

I can't deny that. But it is a generalization.

[Cyrus]

but not anymore. The era of the soundbite and the easy (and mostly nonsencical) quotation is upon us.

Case in point, Gamblor's "arguments" and the "validations" of them. I informed him that no nation in History can claim the kind of continuity that the Jews claim ("2000 years on!...", etc). Only ignorant and fanatical nationalists mouth off such crap. History, Archaeology and Biology have put to rest such absurdities.

And how does Gamblor respond ? By invoking a book written by a neo-Jesus freak (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553374338/qid=1064515657/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-0399102-1304726?v=glance&s=books) ! Isn't this depressing?

...My man, when I want to read a one-sided, un-Historic account of the "2000-year Nation", I reach for Stan Mack's offering. At least, he does it with humor.

[Gamblor]

Only ignorant and fanatical nationalists mouth off such crap. History, Archaeology and Biology have put to rest such absurdities.

In what way? I wasn't aware your areas of expertise also include History, Archaeology, Biology, among International Relations, Middle East Politics, and Mathematical Logic. Would you care to demonstrate this "proof"? Only ignorant and fanatical historical revisionists searching to discredit others' claims value such crap.

History, Archaeology, and biology have offered no proof that you speak of. If you send me an Amazon link I will not open it, as I have 1000 more presenting the opposite as truth - archaeological digs in Israel present more than enough proof of the existence of the Israelites and their exile. Of the Temple in Jerusalem and the Roman invasion at Caesaria. Or did the Holocaust not happen either?

Furthermore... I did not invoke Cahill as my proof, would you care to read the other link? I clearly stated, if you'd like to read further...

What about being a Christian makes him a freak, other than the fact that he worships a human being, as influential as he is in the modern world (I'm going to hear it for this one)?

Is everyone who disagrees with you deserving of such wrath as being labelled a "freak"? Cause if so, my friend, then you probably don't get along with a lot of people.

Really, name-calling? I thought you'd sunk as low as you could go.

[Chris Alger]

[Gamblor]

WikiPedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_101)

Notice it was created to counter Palestinian infiltration into Israel - by Palestinian "civilians" with guns.

Notice the disbanding of the unit immediately after the incidents.

Notice that targeting innocents became forbidden by the IDF.

[Chris Alger]

Well what would you expect when most Israelis support the IDF which is a genocidal fanatical terrorist group.

[MMMMMM]

It's not, but Hamas is.

And didn't Arafat say every Palestinian's dream is to be a martyr? Well Israel should martyr Hamas then--before Hamas drags along more innocent kids and families in their death-wish.

[Gamblor]

How can anyone take this man seriously?

[Chris Alger]

The only things trying to "get you" from your insides are the spirochetes responsible for statements like these. In an area often marred by the ravings of messianic lunatics, it is actually difficult to find something crazier that your notion that "the moral high road" of condemning Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians is unfair because of things like Noah's flood and "Egyptian slavedrivers" of 1300 B.C.

[Chris Alger]

So what if it was disbanded? You claimed that Sharon wasn't guilty of targeting civilians. Your own source notes: <ul type="square"> According to the local UN officer Vagn Bennike, hand grenades were thrown into houses while the inhabitants were sleeping, and those trying to escape were mowed down with machine guns. [/list] The result was more than 50 civilians murdered under Sharon's direct supervision. Further, Qibya was only the most notorious of many "routine operations" that Sharon conducted against civilian targets as part of an overall campaign that killed somewhere between 2,700 and 5,000 Arabs between 1948 and 1956 (Israeli deaths numbered about 200-300), mostly civilians whose only crimes were either trying to retrieve property and possessions stolen by Israel or, as in the case of Qibya, to be Arabs (Morris, Border Wars). Not only was Sharon never punished for his conduct, he went on to have a glorious career conducting and facilitating further massacres until his cumulative experiences made him the greatest hero of the peace-loving, terror-hating, Israeli right.

And while Wikipedia claims that the unit was "disbanded" in 1954, it also points out that it was actually just merged intact into the 202d Paratroopers, that "the unit existed independently five months, and three more years as a core inside the paratrooper brigade, before being disbanded after the 1956 Suez war." During this period, "the unit's activities were mostly confined to military targets."

"Mostly." Note that the same groups that Israeli defines as terrorist also "mostly" attack military targets, rendering them indistinguishable in all but their lower body count from the most notorious terrorist in the Middle East.

[Gamblor]

your notion that "the moral high road" of condemning Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians is unfair because of things like Noah's flood and "Egyptian slavedrivers" of 1300 B.C.

Wrong again buddy.

That is not my notion. My notion is that one cannot take a "moral high road" in condemnation of Israel's "mistreatment" of Palestinian murderers because, as is common knowledge, you can't judge someone until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

[nicky g]

"you can't judge someone until you've walked a mile in his shoes."

So we can't judge a suicide bomber then? Or don't they have shoes?

[Gamblor]

, Qibya was only the most notorious of many "routine operations" that Sharon conducted against civilian targets

That's a pretty bold inference. Would you care to elaborate?

that killed somewhere between 2,700 and 5,000 Arabs between 1948 and 1956 (Israeli deaths numbered about 200-300),

Are you implying that because more Arabs died the ethics of the situation are somehow affected?

mostly civilians whose only crimes were either trying to retrieve property and possessions stolen by Israel

This is a lie. Civilians do not try to retrieve property with guns and bombs and try to kill other civilians, only to be stopped by Sharon's forces. Sorry.

or, as in the case of Qibya, to be Arabs

This is laughable.




or, as in the case of Qibya, to be Arabs (Morris, Border Wars)[/i]

[Gamblor]

I don't judge him at all.

But if I meet one planning a suicide bombing, I kill him.

Otherwise, I die. You see my logic?

I am not here to defend Israel.

I am here to explain to you why Israel does what it does.

But if you all really see the world as one big conspiracy of Zionist Propaganda and right-wing ideology, you probably should examine your own issues and realize that it doesn't matter what I offer to these people, they want me dead.

[Cyrus]

"You can't judge someone until you've walked a mile in his shoes."

Yes. That's why movie critics are all ex-actors. That's why judges are all ex-criminals. That's why you have lived in a Palestinian refugee camp.

[Cyrus]

"It doesn't matter what I offer to these people, they want me dead."

Do I detect a whiff of paranoia here? Rhetorical question.

[Gamblor]

Do I detect a whiff of paranoia here? Rhetorical question.

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you" - Anon.