The hand i played

[TheRake]

Thought I would share a hand I played last night. Not only because I was really happy with the way I played it, But also because it was so unbelievably close to a hand Mason Malmuth describes in his book "Poker Essays Volume III" (see the chapter on looking at the flop).

Party $1/$2 Holdem (full table)

I am holding 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif UTG. I limp in pre-flop and there are 3 callers including the SB and BB checks (5-way pot).

Flop comes J /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks...BB Bets...I decide to just call the bet to see what comes on the turn. UTG+1 calls all others fold.

Turn comes 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets out..I raise and I can almost hear UTG+1 cussing because now he has to call two big bets cold to see if he completes his flush draw on the river (i read him for a drawing hand). He calls 2 bets cold...BB calls.

River comes 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks...I bet....UTG+1 folds BB calls. I take down a nice pot (12 big bets).

After i finished playing I remembered reading about a similar hand in "Poker Essays III" and decided to get the book out. I was shocked to see how similar the two hands were.

I have heard people talk about making your oponent compound thier mistakes, but until last night I had never knowingly accomplished this task.

As always, any comments are welcome.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The only comment I have is that you should raise the flop when there are so many possible draws out there. Also, in most low limit games fewer people will put you on a set when you raise both the flop and turn, and if somebody makes 2 pair, you may actually get more action.

[TheRake]

The point is that you don't raise after the flop only to have a club fall on the turn. If you wait until the turn to raise the odds do not justify a call from the flush draw. If he does call he is making a mistake. If a club does fall on the turn i can get away from my hand and it only cost me 2 small bets.

[Wingnut]

If the club falls on the turn and you get away from your hand, you're the one making a mistake. You have 10 outs to improve. In your scenario you would get at least 5-to-1 to call a bet on the turn, needing only 3.7-to-1. The only reason to get away from your hand is if you got trapped in between two raisers, and even then not many people would fault you for calling.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The way you played it, the flush draw has correct odds to call on the turn (if it's UTG+1 don't forget to count the implied odds of the BB calling the raise). Also if you fold to pressure on the turn if a flush card falls it's you making the mistake as you have odds to redraw to 10 outs to fill up. One mistake most low limit players make is to slowplay sets (and made str8s) on the flop. Even if the pot odds are correct to call, you want to charge draws the max you possibly can.

[TheRake]

I agree it would be a mistake for me to fold to the pressure of a flush if it falls on the turn, but my point was that it allows me the option to get away (if i need to) for the minimum amount of bets. I don't consider this to be slow playing. I am not trying to keep people in the hand because i think i have an unbeatable hand. I am trying to increase the mistake the flush draw is making by calling 2 bets cold. In addition, if I do raise the flop the BB just checks to me on the turn and i do not have the oppertunity to raise here. The flush draw will surely check in this situation to see a free card if I try for a check raise. Even if i was to raise on the flop this does not keep the flush draw from calling that bet. He would be justified to do so. But by raising the flop he now has better odds to draw to the flush on the river as well. Plus there is more pressure on him to call 2 big bets with only one card to come. It is more likely I can get him to fold here than on the flop (although not extremely likely in a low limit game). If the flop comes out rainbow i agree that you should get as much money as possible in the pot. In this case with 2 clubs on the board and someone i know is drawing to a flush..I am convinced i played this hand extremely well.

[Copernicus]

I wont comment on how you played it, because I am horrible at ring games. However, there is another recent thread on the issue of spoiling the odds for a drawing hand. It is clear that the only way "spoiling the odds" is higher EV if you can really influence whether the player will fold or not. If he is going to call with the wrong odds or the right odds, you are better off giving him the right odds, but collecting the money when he misses.

Do you really think that in a 1/2 limit game a flush draw is going to fold because he's short on pot odds? One of the reasons I lose at ring games is because they call so damn much but hit them, without the odds.

So, while your play may be theoretically correct, and may even be correct for the game you were in, for most 1/2 games "spoiling the odds for a draws" is an illusion. Jam away and hope you dont see more than your fair share of suckouts.

I wonder what that book on winning at low limits says about spoiling odds, if it addresses it. Anyone know?

[TheRake]

Boy you guys are tuff /images/graemlins/smile.gif...let's look at it from an EV perspective...

First let's look at it if I raise after the flop
Rnd 1 betting = 5 sm bets
Rnd 2 betting = 6 sm bets (I raise the flop)
Rnd 3 betting = 3 big bets (because BB checks to me)
Rnd 4 betting = 2 Big bets (Flush draw folds)

(5+6)/2+5 = 10.5 Big Bets

Now let's look at it the way I played it

Rnd 1 betting = 5 sm bets
Rnd 2 betting = 3 sm bets (I don't raise here)
Rnd 3 betting = 6 big bets (And maybe the flush draw folds)
Rnd 4 betting = 2 Big bets (Flush draw folds)

(5+3)/2+8 = 12.0 Big Bets

Someone who agrees with please chime in on this one /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for all your responses guys..this is why I love this board.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

First of all, I didn't mean in my original post to suggest that you made a major mistake by not raising the flop. In fact, It seems you got the most out of this hand that was possible. However, to look at that fact and thus assume that your play was perfect is to be too results oriented.

In this case with 2 clubs on the board and someone i know is drawing to a flush.

You don't know this before the turn.

My point is that there is nothing in the pre-flop and flop play to indicate definitively that either of yout opponents is on a flush draw, so while your play here is optimal if one is on a flush draw, it may not be if a different set of circumstances are present.

Limping preflop, calling on the flop and raising on the turn is the standard way LL players play a flopped set. So, while a LL, most players are only thinking about their cards (and probably are clueless as to pot odds) a decent player will a) take into account the BB's potential overcall in his odds calculation, and b) have a very good idea what you hold (i.e., if his flush draw is Axs, he now knows that he has no overcard outs).

Several things are possible. If the person behind you is holding an overcard with a gutshot and back-door flush draw, raising the flop will probably lose him, which is good for your set, because if he makes his str8 and you don't fill, he's going to extract a lot of bets from you. Plus, if you raise the flop and bet out on the turn, if either of your opponents makes 2 pair, he may put you on a hand like TP/TK or an overpair slowplayed preflop and you'll be able to extract more bets later.

Again, I'm not suggesting that you played the hand badly, I'm just suggesting other tactical considerations.

[Louie Landale]

Side note: you'll FOLD your set if the 3-flush gets there? Are you out of your mind???

Anyway.. Yes, if everyone cooperates you gain more raising the turn than the flop, simply because the turn bet is bigger.

However [] Maybe the BB will check the turn, which is actually likely since he's more likely to have made a marginal bet than say someone in Early position who bets (BB can have J2 and early can have KJ) [] You let the weak draws, such as Q8 or Ac3h, in cheap. This is particulary important for this relatively dangerous board that is VERY likely to hit lots of callers. [] By slow playing you are very likely to dry up the action: someone with J3 is NOT going to bet or raise anymore. [] If you raise the flop you may get a chance to 3-bet, and MAY get a chance to also 3-bet the turn. [] If you routinely slow-play players will, and trust me on this, start taking shots at you when you DO bet or raise.

Generally the risk-reward ratio for slow-playing isn't very high since the "rewards" for slow-playing (vis-a-vis not slow playing) usually don't add up to much; getting any more than 1.5bb (as in your example) is pretty much tops. Risks, however, are generally very high (even if not very likely).

The only redeeming feature of this slow-play is that the bettor is in front of you.

I may slow-play once in a while for affect, but not in this situation.

- Louie

[baggins]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons I lose at ring games is because they call so damn much but hit them, without the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is incorrect. you are thinking very results-oriented here. certainly, if your opponents continue to put money in the pot with short odds on their draws, the cards break even and they are losing more than they are winning when they hit... meaning you are winning more when they don't hit, and have leaks elsewhere in your game.

i'm not trying to be a jerk, but the fact that your opponents chase incorrectly is certainly not why you LOSE!

[Copernicus]

I did not mean to imply that I am "unlucky" or the "cards dont like me". When you get a lot of chasers (justified by the odds or not), the "Collective enemy" is more likely to beat you with "normal" cards, more often than if only those with proper odds called.

Note I also said "One" of the reasons I lose. I know I have other leaks, and generally know what they are but seem powerless to correct them. thank Hoyle for tournaments!