Some more PLO questions

[Zag]

Thanks to all who have been helping my PLO education. Here are some more questions. For all, assume a reasonably passive, soft game like the Party $50 buy-in.

What are a couple of examples of the worst hands with which you would call preflop ...
1. under the gun?
2. on the button after a few limpers and no raise?
3. on the button after a single pot-sized raise and one caller? Assume the raiser is not a complete idiot nor a complete maniac.

My answers would be something like:
1. 88TQd, 99JQ, 8TTJs, AQJ8s (ace is suited)
2. 4679, AQxxs (ace is suited), KQJxs
3. same as 1, I guess, though I give a little more favor to Axs, because I want to hit the stone cold nuts against someone likely to give some serious action.

What are the worst hands with which you would raise preflop ...
4. under the gun?
5. on the button after a few limpers and no raise?
6. on the button after a single pot-sized raise and one caller? Assume the raiser is not a complete idiot nor a complete maniac.

My answers again:
4. AQJ9d, QQJ9s, QQT8d
5. JJT8s, JJ99d
6. KKQJd, AAJxd, AA99s, KQJ9d

I'd be glad for your own answers, as well as comments on mine.
Thanks in advance. -- Zag

[bugstud]

I personally think your answers are a bit loose on the pair side. I try not to play any pair below tens unless the cards are very coordinated, because set over set is common enough that I'd prefer not to lose my stack on it. It looks like you overvalue doublesuited hands as well. Your button hand with 4679 just has too many gaps to hit flops really hard, other than a 58x flop.

[Ray Zee]

in games with good players you wouldnt last out the day unless you married into the gates family. rethink your hands in all spots.

[Phat Mack]

3. same as 1, I guess, though I give a little more favor to Axs, because I want to hit the stone cold nuts against someone likely to give some serious action.

Here's something to think about. How much will it cost you to hit the stone cold nuts wit Axs, and how much will you get paid if you do?

[crockpot]

your answers are unfortunately way off from what i believe to be the correct plays here.

My answers would be something like:
1. 88TQd, 99JQ, 8TTJs, AQJ8s (ace is suited)
2. 4679, AQxxs (ace is suited), KQJxs
3. same as 1, I guess, though I give a little more favor to Axs, because I want to hit the stone cold nuts against someone likely to give some serious action.

your UTG calling standards are looser than my standards for calling on the button in an unraised pot. you are playing way too many hands that can build second best here, and many hands that will be forced out of the pot by a raise.

your button calling hands are ridiculous. hands like 9764, AQxx suited and KQJx suited are huge dogs in this game. i would say 8765, AQT9 suited and KQJ8 suted would be a lot closer to what you should be doing, and even those are not good in raised pots.

also, Ax suited does NOT gain value in a pot that was raised preflop. Ax suited has value in loose-passive online games because if you hit the nut flush against lower flushes you can win a big pot. you will flop the nut flush less than 1% of the time with this hand. what you will often flop instead is a nut flush draw with no other significant outs, which is not a good enough hand to justify putting the big money in.

My answers again:
4. AQJ9d, QQJ9s, QQT8d
5. JJT8s, JJ99d
6. KKQJd, AAJxd, AA99s, KQJ9d

i would barely raise at all under the gun in this game. your positional disadvantage dictates that you do not want to participate in a big pot. even with hands like KKQQ you would not like to raise hands like small pairs out of the pot, since you will likely need to improve anyway and do not want to drive out a potential smaller set. and hands like QQT8 double suited are definitely not so powerful that you have to build a big pot with them.

saying that you would raise with JJ99 double suited but not single suited or unsuited is ridiculous. if you would feel comfortable moving all in with a jack high flush after building a huge pot preflop, please feel free to sit at my table anytime.

as for your requirement that your double suited aces have a jack kicker, i simply have one question: why??? do you think you are more likely to flop JJx with AAJx than 88x with AA8x? i would raise with any double suited aces here, but i would rather have AA54ds than AAJ5ds.

that said, number 6 is by far the closest to my answer of any of them. i think all the hands there are good enough to build a pot in position. but don't value queen-high and lower flush draws very much, because they will rarely do you too much good. against decent players queen high flushes will either win a small pot or lose a big one.

[J.A.Sucker]

That is the single greatest post I've ever read. Informative, hilarious, and true.

[Zag]

Thanks everybody for food for thought. Some responses.

Ray Zee: Well, of course! I wouldn't even sit down at the table with good players. I am talking about the Party mini-PLO-game, where you routinely see people push all in with nothing more than a ten-high flush draw on a paired board. I have seen an entire circuit where I was the only person to fold preflop, and the only person to raise preflop as well. Most of them think that calling an unraised blind is like an ante and they are supposed to do it no matter what. Even with standards that frighten you this way /images/graemlins/smile.gif , I am beating this game -- though not as well as I would like.

crocksucker: Thanks for a lot to think about. In the cases where I specified, say, a 9 kicker, I am not really that specific -- I was just trying to say that there are a little more requirements than an x in that position. Anyway, your post is very helpful -- it leaves me with a lot to chew on.

Phat Mack: Clearly, you haven't played in these games either. The answer is that I expect to be able to go all in and get paid off. I recently flopped a middle set and flush draw, made the flush on the turn and quads on the river, and been called down (nearly all in on turn) by a hand which had top pair and a straight draw.

But I do understand that I have to totally unlearn all this if I ever play against real players.

[Graham]

I didn't wade through your whole post, but you're definitely playing too loose. Even if everyone else plays total loosey goosey, you can't loosen up yourself too much - you still need hands that can hit in multiple ways. Being able to confidently bet your hands postflop is where you'll get the real $$.
Phatty's right - if you get beyond the barneys at baby online plo games on party, you won't get paid off with flushes too much. I play with the reknowned looseys at Ladbrokes and even they know a 3 flush when they see it.

Try playing a good chunk tighter with only very highly coordinated hands and see how your results stack up (bet you'll like the improvement /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

You've got some great advice from these 2 recent threads - good job posting them.

G

[bigfishead]

I dunno I deal a regular PLO game all the time with blinds of $5-10 and often a $25 button straddle, SB acts first. The first 4 hands you mention wins and busts a lot of people. These are "wrap" type hands. What most important is how deep you are and how deep they are. The implied odds if you hit the flop hard.

Funny thing tho. Last week I saw a pot with over $20,ooo in it pre-flop 5 way action, 3 side pots, everyone all-in. Flop came KKK and pocket aces took it down. So they do certainly gamble in PLO.

If you play those hands above you MUST be able to play very well post-flop.