AK suited in early position against loose passive players

[Gronk]

I've been rolling this around in my head for a while and wanted some other opinions on it. I've been playing against some loose passive players lately. By this I mean that an early position raise will get cold callers(playing any two cards) who will stay to the end if they flop a pair, regardless of how many overcards there are.

Often times, I'll find myself in a situation where I raised preflop with AQ suited or AK suited and get two cold callers behind me and the flop completely misses me. Nothing of my suit and I didn't match either of my cards. No straight draw for me either.

In this hypothetical situation, where you're garunteed they'll both call to the river regardless of what they have I'm beginning to realize that semi-bluffing with your overcards is a big -EV play. Given that they're likely to check behind you whether they hit or not and that there's around a 3 out of 4 chance that one of them has a pair(my math could be off here I just guesstimated) is it a waste of chips to semi-bluff in this situation? I've begun limiting myself to semi-bluffing to when I flop, at the very least, a flush draw to go with my overcard draw and the results seem to be better.

Another question I have, I tend to check and fold the flop in these situations as well(no good draw and no pairs) against two players. Could anyone help me out by telling me what kind of pot odds you need to draw to an overpair? I have been wondering if the amount of players you need involved to get good odds to draw to your overpair would be offset by the fact that one of them is bound to be able to beat you when you get there.

I'm done rambling now.

[1800GAMBLER]

People get too attached to AK when they miss. Remember it's just 2 overcards now. Don't throw any more bets in unless you work out the frequnecy of their folds against pot/bet size, since it's a semi-bluff add the times you will hit. More often than not though with 2 callers it's pointless, since they stay in with just overcards too after the preflop raise.

Regarding the flush draw:

You aren't semi-bluffing anymore, you are value betting regarding both your overcards are clean:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Js 9s 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ks 520 52.53 470 47.47 0 0.00 0.525
Tc Jh 470 47.47 520 52.53 0 0.00 0.475

</pre><hr />

Regarding odds to chase, you have 6 outs. 47 unseen cards. 6:42 or 1:7 shot. Although i know a lot of posters do regard 3 overcards as 1.5 outs due to the frequnecy you wont win when you hit, due to the reserve implied odds.

[Mike]

I think JayP covered the technical end very well, let's look at the cold callers view....

Cold Caller 1: I've been watching that guy in seat three for almost an hour now. He raises preflop with good cards and usually folds when there is a bet and the flop missed him. I've got T9s and he raised. Hmmm, if he's on a draw which is more likely than a big pair, it's probably AK to AJ. That means most boards won't help him much, and I'm a favorite for the board to help me and te calling station often folds at the river. I'm going to call the raise and see what happens. If I win at least one out of three hands like this I'm a few chips ahead with the calling station in the hand.

Cold caller 2 and 3: He usually raises preflop with good hands and check/folds or calls the rest of the way, so it's really only one more small bet to stay in. I can afford that.

If you want your AKs to get more respect, you have to make it more painful for those perpectual (sp?) callers with your other hands. Then they won't be so willing to play beyond the flop with you unless they actually make a hand themselves.

[gunboat]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want your AKs to get more respect, you have to make it more painful for those perpectual (sp?) callers with your other hands. Then they won't be so willing to play beyond the flop with you unless they actually make a hand themselves

[/ QUOTE ]

One way to do this is check/raise your big pairs on a rag flop. Also check raise if you hit your kicker after raising AQ or AJ. This will really get the attention of anyone that thinks and makes it painful on the junk hands that happen to hit something. Or those that try to push you off overcards with nothing but position. Next time you will be more likely to get the free card.

Then for variation, occasionally check raise your AK on the same rag flop.

[zuluking]

There are some players that play any pair to the river. I'll check/fold my AK/AQ, etc., against them. However, sometimes I'll get the free turn card by being last to act. Against the players who are on the draw, and who I know would fold a lousy pair, I'll ram it all the way to the end. If they don't catch, they fold on the river almost everytime.

[Tyler Durden]

The limp reraise with AKs is fun and exciting.

[J.R.]

I love that move (and probably over-use it), but the limp re-raise doesn't work so well against loose passive players, who are far more likely to call 2 cold than to raise after limpers, and when they do raise, ussually hold a hand that dominates AK.

[trillig]

Don't bluff into calling stations . [end of story]

You will make tons of money on real hands as compensation.

In local games here [las vegas], tight is best at limit in general anyhow.

Just so boring when you have the run of 2/7 - 4/10's over and over and over.

zzzzz

I played a 2s7s after a ton of garbage just to see, and I folded it after flop but two runners for a straight showed up and I would have won a nice pot and most pissed, caz I missed op to showdown worst hand in poker as a winner. 8)

-t