when the mood turns ugly?

[mike l.]

i dont recall reading about this before. i play 20-40 with some really manic types who are basically straight up sick gambling addicts who like to play almost all their hands and play them to the hilt. they are like most people in that when they are running good (which is not too frequent as you can imagine, although they all play so bad so they are really on a constant rollercoaster just trading chips around) they are chipper and chatty, but when they are having one of those nice drop 4 racks in a half hour sort of moments they get very grumpy and nasty and like to stare holes through their opponents and cuss at and threaten the dealer. it gets pretty unpleasant sometimes. and sometimes the more grouchy psycho regulars scare off the more timid fish.

any fresh ideas on how best to act when things get really ugly re: dealer abuse, player abuse, and all around sociopathic behavior from the regular gambling addicts?

[TobDog]

People are going to be less than happy when they are losing, that is just human nature. You can play at a location that does not tolerate dealer/customer abuse, aside from that, if you can make your table a happy place, and 7 of your closest friends, then the 1 black hole will either leave or lighten up, not that we want him to leave if he is on record pace. Just a suggestion

tobdog

[Dwayne]

Bad poker players tend to do other things badly such as controlling their tempers. If these player are just letting off steam and quickly calm down then it may be best to just tolerate them if you want to play in that game.

If it is threatening vulgar abuse directed at someone personally then it becomes the responsibility of the card room management to put a stop to it. Taking up for an offended player or dealer may be the valiant thing to do but it is the floor supervisor's job. Most likely it will cause you to become the focus of future abuse. Stay on good terms with the management. Remind them that you are a customer that should be valued. Let the floor supervisor know how you feel about the abuse and except no excuses. Encourage other players that feel the same to speak up as well. Other than quitting playing in that card room, it's the best you can do.

[mike l.]

"If it is threatening vulgar abuse directed at someone personally then it becomes the responsibility of the card room management to put a stop to it."

unless it became scary in some way i wouldnt do this. i know this is an ethical scenario and the humanists will pipe in and say im wrong to not have more respect for the situation and get an authority figure involved, but frankly i try to keep my bottom line front and center when playing at 4am (try justifying to your wife playing all night and coming home with little or less to show for it!) with these angry turds.

really what i was asking was about anger management. not my anger but theirs. any ideas on how to calm them down? i dont know how to react when they get very angry at what they see as a suckout on my part, or a nut crunching checkraise on the river, or if god forbid i neglect to live straddle (or blind 3 bet a live straddle) when everyone else is doing it. ive tried just not reacting and that doesnt go over well. i try to laugh or make jokes, to smile, to be quiet and mournful over their loss ("yeah that was tough the way those pocket twos went down in flames when he flopped broadway on ya. you certainly did have the best hand going in. i can certainly see why you lost $400 on that hand."). it doesnt seem to work well. i dont want to seem too aloof and have all my action dry up, ive seen it happen to other players and it's a small room.

[brad]

you could start overbuying in sometimes maybe, that way they wont be too jealous of your racks of chips if u bought in for a lot. just a thought.

also if everybody is straddling i dont think a straddle is completely verboten. (within reason, etc.)

[Mike]

I usually just leave. Sittting there watching and listening will effect my game too, and then my game goes down the toilet bowl. Of course I have been known to make a few innocent comments to help them get the full enjoyment from their pouting and whining before I leave.

[BruceZ]

Is this at Oceans 11?

[mike l.]

[anatta]

I've played that Ocean's 20-40 five times. Four times it was Saturday or Sunday afternoon. The players were older, nice, kinda passive. Then I played on a Friday night, like around midnight to 3 am. I hated it. The game was profitable, but the drunken Maniacs wouldn't shut up. Talk, talk, talk, the whole time. I quickly went home.

I know you like the late night action, and that's where the money is, but for me I'm gonna play during the day.

If I were you, I would just say nothing, maybe listen to a walkman. Turn it up real loud when they are acting badly. I wouldn't worry about your action drying up until it happens. It probably won't. Just play your game, if they want to adjust, then counter.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I normally leave. I play primarily for fun, and it is not fun to play with nasty people. I really don't care how much money they are going to contribute. If the game ain't fun, I ain't playing.
Regards,
Al

[MRBAA]

Unless they are physically dangerous, why not just be playful? Like when a maniac on full tilt raises and you fold something like 4-3(o) say "I'm folding my kings because I respect your raise" or "you'd probably cap with this" as you muck.

Or when you drag a big pot, pull out a little note pad and start writing very intently before you stack the chips. When they ask what you're doing, say you noticed a couple of new tells from them and just want to get them down while they are fresh.

Or bring a fishing lure with a foot or so of line attached (removal of hook recommended) and use it as a card holder. But when you drag a pot, toss the lure towards the just defeated opponent's seat and pantomime reeling it in.

This should get the juices flowing and make the game a lot livelier.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Agreed.

Basically, you can't turn off the chat when live, so no matter how much some jerk stands to lose, it's probably not worth sticking around if you're going to have a lousy time. I don't stay in a truly unpleasant game, even if I'm winning, or a "favorite" to win.

People should not be allowed to get away with murder, even if they are losing quite badly. It's a bit different online, in that it's easier to filter out such BS, tho truly bad behavior should still not be tolerated.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I like your fishing lure idea. To take it a bit further...

You could also go to walmart, get the "bass fishin'" video game (about $10), that makes realistic casting sounds and motions, and each time you bet, "cast" your electronic lure. If you lose a pot, you can "change lures" and hope to do better next time....

BTW, I just LOVE that particular hand held video game! I have actually (on occasion) gone fishing with nothing but a chair and my little video game.

al

[MRBAA]

Yes, I think this would be a great icebreaker in the game Mike L. describes and no could be the start of some really good friendships.

Either that or have several players hate you and go on wide open screaming tilt. Also good.

[baggins]

I personally have pretty thick skin. I don't mind playing with a bunch of jerks, usually. It makes taking their money that much sweeter. and when they spout their 'theories' at me, I try to reinforce the bad ones as much as possible.

I also love pokin fun at everybody. I will laugh it up and do a bit of 'hustlin' to get the game more lively and fun. but if it doesn't work, and it's a good game, i don't mind all that much. it's still fun for me.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Mike,
Sorry to be discouraging, but there is little or nothing you can do to keep people from acting nastily. You want to manager THEIR anger, and the only person whose emotions you can manage is yourself.
Of course, some people have great tact and diplomatic skills that might help marginally. However,the examples you gave clearly suggest that they often demand that you act stupidly to placate them. Unless you are willing to be as stupid as they are, they are going to pressure you to straddle, etc. And, if you suck out, nothing you can say will have much impact on someone whose natural response is anger.
So focus on the only player you can control, yourself. Let them act like fools, but don't imitate them. If they become too obnoxious, leave. But under no circumstances should you act like a jerk to be "one of the boys."
Regards,
Al

[cero_z]

Hi mike,
I personally play for money, so I am too detached to be drawn into that negativity emotionally (most of the time). I just try to defend the really weak players who the jerks go after mercilessly, as long as the weakie is a nice person who's just trying to have fun. Other than that, I use my desire to punish the offenders as motivation for staying on task, so I can get their chips.
Also, I wanted to address this:
[ QUOTE ]
unless it became scary in some way i wouldnt [ ask the card room management to put a stop to it].

[/ QUOTE ]
The sad reality of my experience is that they almost never will, even when there does appear to be some likelihood of violence. I've seen it many times at the Trop in AC, at the Shoe in Tunica and Vegas, all over Iowa, East Chicago, and Colma. Very inappropriate behavior that gets nothing more than a "cool it" from a floorperson who walks by and is ignored by the jerks. My perception is that these people are regulars, and the floor is too intimidated/ concerned about losing the regular's collections to stop them. In the few times I've been to the Mirage and Bellagio, I've never seen an instance like those above, even though the floor doesn't seem to be very available to any particular game. But IMO they are the exception.

[Warren Whitmore]

You will notice 3 things at the high limits.
(1)The players are smarter than average.
(2)On the freedom : security spectrum they lean far towards the freedom side.
(3)They demonstrate much greater anti social behavior than the average.
The reason for the anti social behavior is that if they possesed any social skills even aproaching normal they wouldent be playing cards for a living as thier other prospects would be much more profitable. Poker is about the only field that will tolerate it. You need to adjust for it eventually so get used to it. The higher in limits you go the worse the behavior will get.

[DanS]

"I've seen it many times at the Trop in AC, at the Shoe in Tunica and Vegas, all over Iowa, East Chicago, and Colma."

What have you seen in Colma? Lucky Chances is one of the few places where I've never seen anyone get out of line, thanks to the rigid enforcement of the "zero tolerance" rule by the floorpeople.

Dan

[Al Schoonmaker]

I was saddened to hear that The Trop in AC now allows people to act nastily. When I lived in AC, they were much more demanding. I've seen them throw out many people, including at least two that I complained about.
One major reason that I play at The Excalibur in Las Vegas is that they demand that people act decently. If someone is out of line, they will throw him out, no matter how much money he is donating. I've seen the same pattern, to a lesser extent, at other small LV rooms such as Luxor, Sam's, Palace Station, and The Palms.
I must add that I play only at small rooms because I won't put up with nastiness. I am very glad that I can play in so many places that don't allow it.
If nastiness bothers you, come to Las Vegas and play in the smaller rooms. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Regards,
Al

[cero_z]

Hi guys,
Just to follow up on my comments (though Al didn't ask for specifics): I was at Lucky Chances 2 months ago, and witnessed an ongoing argument between 2 regulars and an old man who didn't seem to know anyone else. One of the regulars administered a bad beat to the old man, who then began educating him. The regular, a total fish, then went ballistic, swearing and yelling, to which the floorman said, "cool it." The fish said, "I'm not doing anything wrong, Joe (Not sure about the floorman's name). This xxxxsucker is bothering me." The floorman said to cool it again, and walked away. The problem was in no way diffused. The fish got ruder and ruder, and started to focus his bs on the dealer. This went on for about 30 minutes, until the player finally got 300 or so ahead, and decided to quit. The fun atmosphere that had been present was ruined, but worse, a player was allowed to insult and swear at another player with no consequences. Bad example.
The last time I was at the Trop, I witnessed a guy acting borderline psychotic. He was a huge man who would mutter about the joint cheating him, the particular dealer cheating him, etc. as he played every hand. When he'd lose at showdown, he'd just stare at his cards, shaking his head and gritting his teeth. Then, he'd explode, slamming the table and standing up, looming over the dealer (he was in the 1 seat). He'd turn as if to walk away, get one step behind the dealer, and sit down again. Then, he'd repeat the process. Seriously, he did this 4 times before I said something to the manager of the room. When I did, he acted concerned, asking me to surreptiously point out the offender. Then, he said, OK... I know him; I'll take care of it. To my knowledge, he did no such thing. I stuck around about an hour, during which time the man's behavior worsened. The dealers were obviously unsettled, though they knew him as well. He really was scary, transitioning quickly from smiling and apologizing for "losing it" to jumping out of his seat, muttering angrily, and pacing behind the dealer. Anyway, this was the one instance where I believed there would be some violence in a public cardroom.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I am shocked and appalled. Two plus years ago, when I played at The Trop, that sort of behavior would never be tolerated. And it would not be tolerated in any of the smaller Las Vegas rooms I mentioned. I also believe, but don't have hard evidence, that EVERY room in LV would throw that man out.

The management should know that, if that man hits someone, they have an unwinnable lawsuit. There is a pattern of behavior that clearly indicated potential danger to other people. They are legally responsible for protecting their customers. We do NOT play at our own risk. We risk our money, but not our bodies.

Thanks for bringing these examples to our attention. You have my "permission" to print this and show it to management. Of course, since this is a public document, you don't need that permission, but I want you to know I would not be at all troubled by your using it.

The same "permission" applies to anyone who reads this. Management should realize the terrible risk they are taking by allowing a potentially violent person to act in a threatening manner.

Anything that improves manners and decorum in poker rooms is in everyone's interest.

Regards,

Al

[mike l.]

"And, if you suck out, nothing you can say will have much impact on someone whose natural response is anger."

this was really what i was asking: how should i act when a big fish blows up at me? just sitting and quielty ignoring him comes off as callous and rude. there's one particular guy who i play against every day who just loses enormous amounts of money, and as he does so he loses his temper and makes a scene hand after hand. he plays every hand and plays them extremely fast all the way to showdown. it is not abnormal for him to drop $6000 or more in a 20-40 overs game. then when he loses a pot he tips the dealer (weird i know) by throwing a handful of chips in their tray, jumping out of his chair, and screaming "thanks, joe (or dealer's name)" and then he sometimes turns his attention to the player who beat him and says "how could you call with that? didnt you realise i had top pair?" if you were to say "you play so many hands so fast, i had no idea what you had!" he would say "oh so i never have a hand?" it's a constant scene with this guy. i would never ever ever complain to the floor about this, and i dont feel like he would get violent, but he is just so so tempermental, im wondering if there is any way to diffuse the situation. i felt so bad for him after one hand i said "im sorry" and he yelled "no your not! your not a bit sorry!"

i know it's just part of the reality of playing mid limit hold em, you face some serious gambling addicts at their worst. i was looking for some serious productive ways to handle such radical outbursts of anger and frustration.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

But I'm another al...

I think that in the face of someone who's so consistently wildly obnoxiously confrontational while losing, there may be NO solution to the situation. Their anger is their own problem, and if they are so compulsive as to lose all their money regularly, it's their own fault. I have a somewhat compulsive personality myself, tho it's not so out of control that I'd keep losing all my money for ever-and-ever-amen.

Screw the mutha. Look to the california recall election if you need some convenient one-liners. I'm no match to the great Arnold (whom I of course hold in respect as a near-God), but try this one... "oops... My bad, I've been smokin' crack" ...if you're in dire str8s for a comeback.

al

[Tommy Angelo]

"how should i act when a big fish blows up at me? just sitting and quielty ignoring him comes off as callous and rude."

Not if you do it all the time after every pot you ever play win or lose. Then it comes across as perfecly normal.


Tommy

[mike l.]

"Not if you do it all the time after every pot you ever play win or lose. Then it comes across as perfecly normal."

im not capable of doing that, nor is it the image i want to portray. we've went over this before. you think people see it as mellow, aloof, and okay, and i think people read it as stern, tightass, and downright unfriendly and oppositional.

i naturally just laugh and smile when i win a pot and become chatty. this also happens sometimes when i lose, ill smile and say something friendly maybe, it helps me step away from the game emotionally and remember who i am and where i am and remember that it was only a pot i lost, another will come along soon that i will win. sometimes i frown and pout a little (sighs, not words) when i lose a pot.

but i dont want to be smug and do what looks like gloating to some of these maniacs who are so oversensitive and emotionally immature. nor do i want to be silent. it's a pretty uncomfortable situation. i guess there's just no answer to it.

[Mike]

This happened to me this weekend, first time at the HE table, it was pretty common when I played Stud. A player thought I played junk at him making a small straight on the river. He completely missed the flopped four flush and straight draw that had me calling his raise on the flop against six players.

He blew up, stood up, and told the whole room what he thought of my talent, and this particular hand. I said flatly, "You are right, it was a horrible call." I had to repeat it so it sunk in what I said. End of tirade, what else could he say.....

[brad]

just learn to b.s.

"how could you call with that? didnt you realise i had top pair?"

i put you on 22.

"oh so i never have a hand?"

well i went to all the trouble to mark all the deuces in the deck, what am i supposed to do? (then you call for a setup)


"im sorry"

"no your not! your not a bit sorry!"

-- yes i am im sorry i didnt suckout /images/graemlins/smile.gif i paid good money for a lucky charm and now this /images/graemlins/smile.gif


(also when u say far out things like that make sure to have a [censored] eating grin on your face)