Removal of funds from your poker accounts as a result of inactivity?

[Simon Diamond]

I have just logged into Dynamite Poker for the first time in months and checked out the balance of my account there - $0.

This shocked me at first, as I know I had over $100 there (which is a lot for me). Upon checking the history of my account transactions I see they have removed all my funds, with the reason being listed as 'dormant'.

Has anybody else encountered situations like this, at Dynamite or elsewhere?

It is most disappointing, as I have recommended the site to people in the past. I have emailed them and will post my findings if I hear back from them.

Simon

[RiverMel]

This site is really bitchy when it comes to certain things. I had an account with a small balance (below the min. cashout requirement). I made a deposit to get my balance up to the min. cashout level, and then tried to withdraw all of it. I had checked the rules, and didn't see anything prohibiting this. There was nothing about waiting a certain number of days between deposits and withdrawls, nor anything else about restricting withdrawals (other than the minimum amount). When I got the cashout, it was only for the amount of my last deposit. I checked the cashier history, and saw they had "cancelled" the rest of the withdrawal, without ever notifying me. I e-mailed them, and they said it was clear I had only made the deposit to be able to withdraw the funds that were already in my account. I did not deny this, but I said that there was nothing in their rules prohibiting it. They didn't budge. I kept harassing them, and they "kindly" offered to let me withdraw the rest ($12), less a $5.00 fee. What BS.

[Adde]

God dammit! I still have 0.073 cents on the bank account my parents opened when I was born. Haven't used the account for 15 years, but it's still there. Go get them Dynamite *uckers!

(this is NOT irony; I HATE it when people pull off scams like this)

[rusty JEDI]

At intercasino (the one place i read the T&C before hitting accept) I read about a policy like this. If your account is left dormant for 90 days they start deducting a percent or something like this.

If you ask me this is bullshit, and if a site plans to do this they should at least have the courtesy to email you first.

[Simon Diamond]

Yes that is what concerns me. I have to say I am very naughty, because I rarely read T&C's - however I would have thought they would have at least informed me that I was in danger of losing my funds due to inactivity.

What I find totally unnacceptable is that I don't believe I have received an email confirming the deduction of funds from my account. I may have missed it in the clutter of my email box, but I am normally very thorough in checking all my messages.

What difference does it make to them whether I am a regular player or play once a year - if anybody can explain this to me I would be extremely grateful.

Simon

[William]

X-mas is aproaching. They must be desperate to find $$$ for the scandinavian escort girls ( they are expensive, and you have to pay 26 of them)(see other post about how to spend your poker bucks)

[Adde]

They must be desperate to find $$$ for the scandinavian escort girls

You mean Danish Dynamite?

[jasonHoldEm]

Simon that sucks...I have like $20 somethign at dyna, I'm going to see if I can get it out.

On a side note...if anyone who has these odd number of cents or other small amounts (dollars are ok as well) and would rather have them go to a good cause rather than the "evil corporate online poker site" I'd be willing to take the burdensome funds off your hands.

I'm jasonHoldem at almost every site...I'll make sure I put the money to good use.

Thanks for your support,
jHE

[Simon Diamond]

Here is the email I received, in reply to my query regarding the removal of my funds at Dynamite (due to inactivity):

<font color="purple">Hi Simon,

On May 25 your account was debited $134.92 as it had been dormant for over 90 days. As per our licensing agreement under the section titled Inactive Accounts: "Any account that has been inactive for a period of 90 days and has not been funded by at least one real money deposit (CentralCoin, PayPal, Credit Card, Bank Draft, Cashier's Check or Money Order), will be deemed "dormant". The balance in a dormant account will revert to zero." The 55 tournament points which were originally deducted have however been restored.

With respect to the dollar balance, I have spoken with Eric, and if acceptable to you we can restore the $134.92 to your account under the condition that you use these funds to earn an additional 268 tournament points in side games before cashing out. (Players receive 1 tournament point for each 1 real money hand raked for a minimum of .75 cents, plus there are double tournament point side games too). This works out to 2 tournament points per dollar before all your funds are deemed "live" again for cashout purposes. If you agree, the funds can be used for side games as well as tournaments.

Please do let me know by responding to this email at cashier@DynamitePoker.com. </font>

Problem solved to certain degree at least. I am still none the wiser as to why they actually operate such a policy though.

Simon

[rusty JEDI]

The doubletournament point tables really do add up fast. You should have that cleared very quick at these tables.

[MrDannimal]

Well, they operate the policy because it allows them to collect free money. I mean, they already get to collect some "float" holding the balance, then rake on played hands. If it's dormant, it's not generating rake (but still float).

They figure that for every 10 people they clean out for being dormant, 1 complains (or just remembers the money is there) and they re-activate it but force you to generate some rake for them before you can take it.

They put it in the T&amp;C which nobody reads, so they're in their rights, but come off as "generous" for bending the rules to let you get your money.

Punks.

[dux]

While it's easier to accuse the managers and workers of drinking beers on Fridays using the money obtained by sapping dormant accounts and catching colluders, but surely there is another reason behind this?

Is it to stop people hiding their funds from tax people or something?

[Ro-me-ro]

Firstly, may I add that I don't like this policy, and that in the past I have supported Dynamite.

I have never had any problems there. When I read this thread the first thing I tried to do was go speak to support but they were not available.


Anyways my 2c, and correct me if this statement is wrong Simon:

They removed your $'s as you had never made a real money deposit. So I am guessing you won your bux in a freeroll and ran them up in the ring? Correct or no.

I don't suppose that is too bad - but this should be made clearer to all freeroll players etc. If Simon had known this he would have made a $10 Paypal deposit back in the days. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway Simon I personally would not accept their compromise. I would also mention the bad publicity they would get from your post here and on RPG should you choose to post it there.

Keep us updated,

Rom

[rusty JEDI]

Adding to the posting of webforums, maybe go post it at VictoryPoker.com. Dynamite is the site all the guys at that forum play at.

[William]

So in fact they are forcing you to play at the site to be able to cash your own money out?
I have never played at Dybamite, but the icon I had on my screen is now gone forever.
Who said gangsters don't operate online poker sites? What a laugh! /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JTrout]

That is a pitiful policy. And 90 days is a very short period of time to be declared "dormant." I'll certainly never give them any business. Does anyone know of any other sites with a similar policy? (I, too, don't read T&amp;C)

[dux]

16. Abandonment of Account Balance.
The Company reserves the right to cancel your PartyPoker.com account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notice to you. If you do not access your PartyPoker.com account by "logging in" to your Account by using your AccountName and password for a period of one hundred and eighty (180) days, your Account will be closed and the entire Account Balance will be deemed abandoned and forfeited; provided however, such requirement for log-in and entry is not and does not constitute any requirement whatsoever for you to play any Game, deposit funds or participate in any activity at PartyPoker.com other than logging in. For the avoidance of doubt, pursuant to this section, Company may also close your ezEcash account as well as any ESP account which you have.

Party (as no doubt do all of their skins) have this policy, albeit 180 days.

[redsimon]

Is the dormant policy because it (your 'roll) was all won from freerolls etc or does it apply to all accounts?

I've just logged on and my $72 there is ok and I certainly went over 90 days without action there.

If you need help getting the player points Simon email me, I fancy a heads up!

[jek187]

I haven't said anything yet hoping that TNT would rectify the situation properly.

Regardless if this 90 day clause is in their T&amp;C or not, it's just a slimy way for the site to make extra money. This is YOUR [censored] money. They should not be taking it away from you. If you want to let it sit there for years even...why should it matter? They still get the float on it for that time. Why they have to be such greedy bastards and take it all, is beyond me.

Unless they properly resolves this, I hope you tell your story far and wide Simon. Let these dirty bastards rot in online poker hell. Turn them into ACR. This is such a shame because I really used to like Dynamite.

And this whole 268 point thing...that's so generous of them. You get to be a prop to get your own [censored] money back. Bullshit. You should just get your money back.

You probably will get your money back after threating them w/2+2, RGP, UPF, etc exposure. It's the poor people that aren't respected/don't know about these forums that'll really lose in the long run. Give em hell Simon.

[ZeeJustin]

Signing a contract agreeing to something does not necessarily make that something legal. For example, if I signed a contract giving you permission to torture and kill me, that would not make it legal to torture and kill me.

Although I'm no legal expert, I would guess this is the same thing. Look at how ridiculous Party's agreement is:

[ QUOTE ]
16. Abandonment of Account Balance.
The Company reserves the right to cancel your PartyPoker.com account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notice to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think would happen if they decided to close everyone's account and run to the Carribean with their money? There is no way that would be anywhere remotely close to being legal.

Long story short: they may say the have the right to seize your money, but in reality they probably don't have that right.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Signing a contract agreeing to something does not necessarily make that something legal. For example, if I signed a contract giving you permission to torture and kill me, that would not make it legal to torture and kill me.

Although I'm no legal expert, I would guess this is the same thing. Look at how ridiculous Party's agreement is:

[ QUOTE ]
16. Abandonment of Account Balance.
The Company reserves the right to cancel your PartyPoker.com account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notice to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think would happen if they decided to close everyone's account and run to the Carribean with their money? There is no way that would be anywhere remotely close to being legal.

Long story short: they may say the have the right to seize your money, but in reality they probably don't have that right.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all I'm pretty sure their provisions are legal in the jurisdiction in which they apply. Even if they were in the US I have little doubt they would be enforceable. A good example are US bank accounts which are FDIC insured. Try leaving your money in an account for 7 years with no activity. They can be legally confiscated although they may go into a state/federal fund rather than to the bank. There is a cost associated with maintaining an account. The only difference I see is the timeline before forfeiture occcurs. I do believe if you agree to the terms you are bound by them.

[MrDannimal]

Occam's razor, my friend.

[MrDannimal]

Does the rest of that clause say they get to keep the money, or just cancel the account?

That clause (we can cancel your account at any time) is pretty much boilerplate in any online venture (MMORPG/poker/whatever) because it covers them if they need to shut down (go bankrupt). They're providing a service to you, they can stop any time they want.

As for the extrapolation (if it is) to keeping the money, no it's probably not legal but jurisdiction gives them a lot of jungle for people to wade through to get their money back.

[SomeTimesIWin]

Agree on the e-mail part, It's interesting to note that some sites are very good at sending out bonus offers (Pro Poker for instance). But if a site can't inform its players that their account is to expire it doesn't give them much credibility from my point of view. If i recall correctly Paradise has a quite nice policy about this where they try to reverse the funds to you or send you a check if your account is found inactive...but this may have changed by now.

[Simon Diamond]

To answer your question Ro-me-ro, I began by winning a few freerolls there, and from that built up my balance with some good results in their buy in tournaments. I also got $25 from a referral bonus.

I do not play ring there, or anywhere else for that matter.

I used to like the site. I don't now - not exclusively because of this incident, but more because of the sub standard graphics and awfully slow action. I may use the money in tournaments, but to be honest I hardly play anywhere these days, so I may never earn the points required to cashout. That does not matter a great deal to me.

My post is more for other peoples information - whether they have an existing account with Dynamite or are thinking of playing there. They have lost my recommendation with this insane dormant accounts business.

I have emailed them to request their reasoning behind this policy and will let you guys know my findings once again.

Simon

[yct]

What a bunch of crooks and thieves!!

Imagine if I dont use my bank account for 90 days, and then are they going to tell me your money is seized, now it's bank's money. What a load of BS.

[Simon Diamond]

Here is the email I received trying to clarify Dynamite's policy regarding dormant accounts:

<font color="006600">Hi SimonDiamond,

First let me clarify that the 90 day dormant policy only applies to players
who have never deposited any money. A 1 year dormant policy is in affect
for those players who have deposited. I do believe that if you survey all
the internet poker rooms, most have a 1 year dormant policy for real money
players, while the rest have dormant policies of less time than that.

Every poker site too has its unique policies with respect to giving away
free money to players who have not deposited any money into their account.
Some poker sites do not even allow players a chance to win free money unless
their account is funded by a real money deposit. Of those who do give away
free money, we believe that DynamitePoker has been consistently the most
liberal poker site (over 2 and a half years now) in that respect. The poker
sites that do give out free money (bonus dollars etc...) have conditions
that we believe are much stricter then ours. When you win a dollar at our
site, it is a real dollar.
We really only have 3 conditions for players who are playing on free money:
a) Standard policies for all real money players (eg. 21 years of age or
over, no collusion/cheating)
b) Minimum cashout is $50.00
c) Continue to play at least once in a tournament or side game so that there
is not a stretch of inactivity for 90 days (1 hand in a .10/.20 side game
counts too).

The reasoning behind condition c) is to encourage players who have built
their bankrolls on free money to come back and play with it on the site.
This benefits us as the poker room is busier, and is the trade off for
DynamitePoker giving away money. We feel it’s the least a player who has
not risked any of his own money can do.

That being said, we are always looking for suggestions that will benefit the
free money player and DynamitePoker at the same time. If your forum has any
constructive suggestions, we would of course be open to hearing them.

Best Regards,

Daniel Williams
Poker Room Manager
DynamitePoker.com</font>

Thoughts?

Simon

[redsimon]

To give them their dues Simon I think that it is a fair policy. Hopefully you will pencil in a once every 89 days "Dynamite hand" day? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[William]

I must also agree now that I know that it was all free money, the dormant policy makes a lot more sense.

[Mike Haven]

mr williams did a very good job thinking up that response on the spur of the moment under the pressure of your spotlight

someone said earlier there is a cost involved in maintaining an account - i am sure that is true in a b&amp;m sense, and that b&amp;m-type thinking is hard to let go - the cost must be absolutely miniscule in the internet world

however, i can see they wouldn't want to hold "false" management-required information and it is probably a good idea to spring-clean every now and then

but i would guess that they have messed up slightly with regard to the originally intended philosophy of the rule

yes - they don't want dormant accounts cluttering up the books and they should sweep them into a pile somewhere

but if an owner of an account turns up later, as you did, they should automatically and willingly reinstate the account to live as, by definition, it is no longer dormant

the fact that you wish to withdraw now is irrelevant if you could have withdrawn 91 days ago, and by allowing you free access to your account they provide you with a feelgood factor that might make you decide to play there again - as against this type of bad publicity probably putting off a couple of dozen or more players giving them further or new business, imo

[jek187]

[ QUOTE ]
I must also agree now that I know that it was all free money, the dormant policy makes a lot more sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe all of Simon's money was free money. As I understand it, he won a small bit in some promo or another, then ran his balance up to 134. Is the money he won somehow less his because it was based off free money? I can see them taking the initial award away. But Simon's winnings should be Simon's till the end of time.