Interesting floor decision

[slavic]

I'm not sure I agree with this one so I thought I'd post it and see what everyone thinks.

Commerce HE game. Great game, one of those games that's so good you just can't believe your down 30BB. Well the button the hand before got up and stormed off after taking his second beat in a row. That lead to a 3 blind hand Small and two bigs. No problem. The next hand I'm in the SB, the cards are delt and the button has not posted a SB yet. His turn comes to act and he mucks, I tell the dealer the pot isn't correct and point out the lack of a post. The button demands his cards back which have of course hit the muck.

The floor is called and the floor man first asks where the cards are. Now half the table is rolling there eyes over this one, but to his credit the floor man doesn't pull them back out of the muck[they were the only two cards in the muck BTW]. The player and floor argue for a bit and then the floor pulls the SB post out of the Dealers toke box, places it on the table and play continues.

Something just says this is wrong to me.

[Dynasty]

The Button should just post his small blind in the next hand.

[Matt D]

That's not right, Dynasty, and based on another recent post of yours, you know that. Just like your steal situation with the Q3, because the button was in a position which required a post and looked at his cards, he must post his blind THIS hand. What would you have thought if the lady in your situation was told she could just post her big blind next hand, leaving the current hand with only the small blind. I think that because you are used to dead buttons, you failed to see that the button's small blind was every bit as required as the lady's big blind in your situation.

I know this might not seem that important, but I've seen many arguements ensue over it. As the preeminent poster on the preeminent poker site, I felt it was important that you had it right.

As an aside, while I got you, you should try to refrain from some of the particularly harsh criticism I've seen of late. I know that you feel that most of the people criticized can take it, but there are many newer players on this site now that may be driven from posting or even playing for fear of facing the same criticism. You are one of the main reasons this site is so great and I believe it is your duty to the site and the game of poker ease up a little bit so that it stays that way.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, while I got you, you should try to refrain from some of the particularly harsh criticism I've seen of late. I know that you feel that most of the people criticized can take it, but there are many newer players on this site now that may be driven from posting or even playing for fear of facing the same criticism. You are one of the main reasons this site is so great and I believe it is your duty to the site and the game of poker ease up a little bit so that it stays that way.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There are mistakes that need Dynasty's particular form of reprimand. When you look for a coach in sports, the hard*** tends to get better results as he tends to give direct usefull feedback, and when you earn his respect it is worth while.

Just my unsolicited $.02

[Dynasty]

When a blind has to be posted out of position, such as on the button, it's not hard for a player not to realize he's obligated to post. If he's not told, I'm not going to hold him responsible.

[RollaJ]

Its an interesting solution, but I think it is unfair. Assuming it was a 1-2 game or a 2-4 game its not that big a deal though.
In AC where I play the player would have to put his money in the pot that hand even though he had already folded. I think this is the way the rule should be, as it prevents another type of angle shooting

[Easy E]

This is just wrong because the guy got out of a measely small blind? The money is still in the pot, why care that much?

If the cards were retrievable without question, then make him post now, give his cards back (how good could they be?) and make him complete the bet since he got the cards back. If it's an angle shoot, it's a particularly clever one.

And, why did you add more angst to the fire in a game "that's so good you just can't believe your down ", especially after one player had stormed off, putting tension into the game?

[daryn]

agreed. just because he looks at his cards doesn't mean he should be charged some penalty. it's an easy mistake to make or maybe the player is a newbie and doesn't know about posting. not the player's fault.

[snoopdarr]

Isn't it the dealer's responsibility to make sure the blinds are posted BEFORE the cards are dealt?

[slavic]

Yes it's the dealers responsibility and to a certain point the players. When your BB comes up, you should have it ready to go, in this case it's no different. I thought the floors answer was a little off base.

Considering a few other things that happened I think I now understand a lot of the player frustation at that Casino. I'm not saying I'd pick on a dealer, but there are some problems there.

It's shame too because the games are good.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it the dealer's responsibility to make sure the blinds are posted BEFORE the cards are dealt?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is the most important consideration. Before he starts dealing, he should say to the button, "small blind, please." If he hasn't posted it yet, he should ask again before he deals him his second card and make sure that he puts it in before dealing to him. If he had done this, the whole mess could have been avoided.

I actually think that the house, rather than the dealer personally, should cover the small blind, but since I'm guessing it was only a dollar or two (only one in the muck?), it probably isn't a big deal either way. Since there was no doubt as to which cards were his, I don't think that it would have been horrible to make him post his blind and then offer him his cards back, provided that there wasn't any action behind him.

[slavic]

It was $2 this was on a 4/8 table. I checked in for higher but was never called, as I mentioned in another post considering a few other items I'm not sure I would have played in it anyway. Perhaps I'm cutting the card room short but I just wasn't impressed compared to my normal card room.

Or maybe the Muckleshoot treats us amazingly well.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Since there was no doubt as to which cards were his, I don't think that it would have been horrible to make him post his blind and then offer him his cards back, provided that there wasn't any action behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this would be a horrible decision. If a player's cards touch the muck, they are dead. It doesn't matter if it's obvious which two cards were theirs, they are still dead. Call me a trouble maker, but I've called the floor over when a dealer or player attempts to bring cards out of the muck back into play, which has happened only a few times.

It's the player's responsibility to post their own blind. The dealer shouldn't have to tell them this. If you had the big blind last hand, then you have the small blind this hand; it's that simple. The player in this situation has nothing to complain about. It was his choice to muck his cards and he should have to deal with it. The fact that he forgot to post his small blind before he mucked isn't the dealer's fault nor the house's fault, so why should they have to pay for his own forgetfulness? Make the sucker pay his own blind. Did everybody else at the table get their small blind paid for that orbit?

[Andy B]

I won't argue too hard about digging into the muck to give the guy his cards back. But you are wrong on this--it is absolutely the dealer's fault that the guy didn't post his blind. Making sure that players post blinds/antes is part of the dealer's job, and he didn't do it. I play a fair amount of stud. If you don't ante, you don't get dealt in. Same thing in hold'em. The dealer should not have given the button his second card before he posted his blind. As has been pointed out, it's somewhat unusual for the button to have to post the blind, and it's forgivable for him to have overlooked this. It is less forgivable for the dealer to overlook this.

[GuyOnTilt]

I completely understand your point of view. However, I just don't see how a player can complain if they fail to post their own blind! It's NOT unusual for the button for a small blind; it happens all the time. I agree that the player should never have gotten cards without posting, but at the same time I have no sympathy for a player who is attempting to have the rules broken for him simply because he was ignorant of the rules of the game. If you had a big blind last hand, you have a small blind this hand. That's the way it always is. To cry ignorance of the rules as an excuse isn't good enough for me. If you don't know how the game works and you make a mistake because of it, it's your own fault. Nobody else should have to pay for it but you. If it costs you a couple bucks, then so be it. Bite the bullet and don't make the same mistake again.

[baggins]

actually, it doesn't happen "all the time".

it happens enough that the dealer should remember the rule, easily enough. but it doesn't happen enough that a player should be expected to remember that he has to post a blind on the button. im sorry, but you're wrong. any time you have to have extra blinds for whatever reason, it can get confusing. seeing the button in front of me is usually a sign that i don't have to pay blinds. the dealers need to enforce this rule. it is certainly not this guy's fault.

look at it another way - if a new player comes to a table, and the dealer doesn't explain anything about the blinds, who is to say that a brand new poker player (never played before, or even heard how it works) should be expected to know about blinds?

now, say the dealer is just horrible and deals the guy in in the BB position without the guy posting his BB, and he tosses his cards in the muck. is he responsible for posting the BB? or is it the dumb-ass dealer's fault? i'd argue for the latter, personally.

in this case, the entire problem could have been handled if the dealer had run the game properly. it is not the players' jobs to run the table and make sure everyone (including themselves) is following the rules. it is the dealers' job.