Poker skills in the job market

[gonores]

I know we had this discussion this past winter, but a lot has happened since then in the poker world, and I think its worth re-hashing the topic.

I'm a senior in college and I have recently come to the realization that I may need a real job after school. Along those lines, I swallowed my pride and decided to wander into my school's career fair tonight. I looked into asset management, business valuation, derivatives trading, etc. (backstage financial fields of all varieties). Cut to the chase...the thought of mentioning that I am pretty successful poker player to the recruiters this evening entered my mind more than once. There are certain combinations of skills that people can develop only at a poker table and in a handful of other situations....if only these recruiters had a clue.

Now, you know and I know that successful poker players have assets that only a small minority of the population possess (even within the college-educated population), but....

A. Is it ever a good career move to tell a potential employer that you are a successful poker player? What if you had years upon years of tax returns worth of proof that you could earn a living off the game? I used to think that this was an absolute no-no, but I ran into an old boss a few months ago and told him I had a growing infatuation with the game of poker, and he appeared genuinely impressed. Is poker's new popularity going to lead to a more mainstream acceptance of players, or are we always going to have to endure the burden of never being understood and never impressing employers, members of the opposite sex, etc. with our poker abilities?

B. What kind of careers naturally lend themselves to the poker player's strengths?

[Clarkmeister]

1. I wouldn't mention it, especially in the midwest.

2. Any type of analytical job, working with finanical markets and instruments, and Business Development (mergers and acquisitions) are all areas that would use similar thought processes.

[MaxPower]

Gonores,

It will depend on who you interview with. Some people will automatically write you off as a problem gambler, while others will be impressed. Since you can't tell which they will do, you shouldn't mention it at all.

Now, if the guy interviewing you have a copy of Supersystem on his desk, you should definitely mention it. You will be surprised how often people are hired because of things like this. I once got a job because I struck-up a conversation about Lou Reed (for you young guys, look in the history books under "The Velvet Underground") and another because I went to the same high school and college as the interviewer.

I think you will be most happy when you find an employer who appreciates the value of your poker skills. You don't want to work for someone who thinks poker is all luck.

[ElSapo]

Hey Gonores... I know a guy who, on his resume a while back, would list under "other interests" that he enjoyed home beer brewing and poker. Inevitably, in job interviews, there would be at least 10-20 minutes discussion of one of these topics. Apparently everyone in his college said putting these things on a resume was a poor idea. He said "screw it," wrote them in, and they provided something personal to discuss beyond just classes, experience and goals.

It's a thought.

I don't think being a poker player is going to get you the job. But b/c poker is such a widely played game, it may have other benefits and provide something different to discuss. It's one of those things you might try slipping in there, just to see what happens. But like I said, I don't think you can chalk it up under "essential skills" or anything like that.

Good luck, either way.

[Dwayne]

"It will depend on who you interview with. Some people will automatically write you off as a problem gambler, while others will be impressed. Since you can't tell which they will do, you shouldn't mention it at all."

I agree. Some people will be intrigued but MOST people will think you are a problem gambler. I rarely discuss poker with non-players. There is still a taint of sleaziness associated with poker. After all, the basic premise of poker is to take money from people that are more stupid than you.

I am an engineer. I have never been faced with an engineering problem that could not be solved. But I have been faced with many people-problems that I could not solve. Being a poker player has helped me read the true motives and intentions of the people around me. Everyone is an actor. Poker skills are useful in resolving rivalries, negotiations, and risk vs. return people issues.

[AmericanAirlines]

Mention it if you are applying for a job as a trader or Stock Broker.

Of course it applies more to the Trader position. Most brokers are really people who kiss asses and act all buddy-buddy for commissions.

AA

[Wake up CALL]

"I am an engineer. I have never been faced with an engineering problem that could not be solved."

Dwayne, you are just the guy I've been looking for. My girlfriend truly loathes her 45 minute drive to work and would like to be instantly transported there with little or no time lag. Please PM me as to the best method to alleviate her transportation woes.

[Dwayne]

Engineering produces optimal solutions at the lowest total cost. If you spend enough money, get the right people involved, and are willing to make hard choices, the problem gets solved one way or another. It's really that simple. Unfortunately engineering methods do not always work well with people type problems. Try telling your girlfriend to get another job or move closer to her work.

[BogeyWan]

I personally have found that poker skills have proven to be invaluable in the salary negotiation process /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Homer]

Why do you find it necessary to nitpick? By the way, your statement in no way disproves his.

-- Homer

[brad]

smack her and tell her to quit bitching.

[ACPlayer]

Trading derivatives.

[cero_z]

Hi gonores,
I'll go you one further. A good friend of mine, who now is a successful options trader overseas, mentioned poker during his phone interview. His interviewer quizzed him about concepts such as EV and game theory for a while, clearly excited to know that he was a decent poker player. When he went in for his 2nd interview, she said, "I've got something for you," and handed him Sklansky's "Getting the Best of It" (He'd read it already). After the interview, they toured the training facility, which consisted mainly of poker tables, where potential traders were engaged in a 7 Stud "tournament" which would go on for several weeks! Results after each session were recorded; basically, overall results and volatility were the 2 important stats-go figure. So poker is a very important aspect of this firm's training. I don't know the name of his firm offhand; it's a proprietary firm that trades on the Philadelphia stock exchange (and several other exchanges). PM me if you want to know more, and I'll email him to get the company's name.
While I suspect the role poker plays at this place is larger than usual, I'm sure similar firms realize the value of hiring smart gamblers. After all, smart gambling is the only reason for them to be there.
Good Luck.

[mosch]

I'm sure most people would suggest not mentioning it, but I'd argue that it's a good idea to mention it.

When getting a job, the goal is not to do mildly well on a large number of interviews, but rather to do extraordinarily well on a smaller amount of them. Information that distinguishes you from other candidates, such as having poker as a hobby is probably a -EV move, but it will often be 0EV and will occasionally be very +EV.

These +EV situations could very well make up for the decreased results in other interviews, by making you more likely to win a job overall, instead of merely making the short list for a large number of positions.

There's probably a middle ground, where the information could be disclosed in a fairly casual manner, which could greatly reduce the -EV of the disclosure while protecting the potential +EV that could be gained, but obviously it'd be too situation specific to know the best play in advance.

[TheArtist]

Sometimes I really like to tell people about my ability to play good poker but then I don't bother because no one will understand(atleast I feel that way). Is there people that understand beside other fellow poker players?

I am trying to move out on my own right now, and I am having a hard time finding a roommate with a room. They usually ask me what do I do? And I tell them I play poker for a living. Then they tell me politely that they already found a roommate.

Maybe one day I can talk about poker like a tennis player talk about his or her game. WHen I meet a girl at the bar I can say I play poker and the girl would go "Interesting" rather than "oh great he is a degenerate gambler". Until that day, I suggest you do NOT talk about poker at your interview unless it's trading jobs or jobs that your poker skills can be transferable to them.

TheArtist

[Warren Whitmore]

A) No
B) Stock market analysis.

[Copernicus]

There are two other reasons not to discuss it. A potential employer is going to worry about "moonlighting" at the poker table, and not focusing on his problems. Also, they will be investing a large amount in your training, and there may be a fear that if you continue to be successful at poker that you will leave to pursue the more "glamorous" road.

The type of job that suits a poker player depends on why he is successful at poker. If the success is due to grind em out knowledge of the odds, tight play and soft games, then a similarly analytical job such as an actuary are well suited. If it is more of a left brained "holistic" approach to the game, where you intuitively recognize opportunities, then commodities, stock and options trading are naturals. Many of the great backgammon players of the 70s heydey were highly sought after by options traders and, (although it may be a bit of self-promotion) some claim to have turned that business upside down with their successes.

If the actuarial side of things interests you feel free to PM.

[jasonHoldEm]

I'm in a similar boat as you and I wouldn't mention it to a potential employer simply because the chances of being misunderstood are too great. Actually, there are only a handfull of people that know I play in the "real world" simply because it's a pain to try and explain it, and most of my friends that know still think I'm a degenerate that's going to loose all his money.

As far as jobs that use poker skills, I think many are over looking the most important side of poker...namely people skills and being able to read people and see what they're thinking. I think management, customer relations, or even recruiting (ironically) are idea for poker players.

After I've won the WSOP I might start putting it on my resume, but until then I'll probably keep it on the down low. On the plus side this should allow me to hustle the company home games for several years before they catch on.

jHE

[Vehn]

When this fat bitch I hated left the company last year she said to me in a parting shot "Good luck with your gambling addiction".

I'll always regret not saying "Good luck with your weight problem".

That is all.

[gonores]

jerk store

If you don't watch Seinfeld, you won't get it.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Peter Lynch is a legend on Wall Street. He ran the Magellan Fund, and is now the vice-chairman of Fidelity. When he was asked how someone could become a better investor, he said, "Learn how to play poker." See "Ten lessons poker teaches great investors," by Christopher Graja, Bloomberg's Personal Finance, June, 2001, p. 56.
That quotation appears right after the title page of my forthcoming book, Business is a poker game. (Two Plus Two will publish it in early 2004. It argues that the skills that poker demands and teaches are extremely valuable in many areas of business. See also Greg Dinkins book, "The Poker MBA."
In fact, an agency has just been started to provide, among other things, poker players as speakers for seminars. Athletes have done it for decades, and poker's new image and popularity have created a market for poker players.
See Warren Karp's article at cardplayer.com. It's in the current issue. See also Wendeen Eolis' article in the current issue of "The Poker Player."
Regards,
Alan

[CEO]

As CEO of a large, multinational company, I absolutely suggest that you do NOT mention your poker playing, even though you might be very successful at it.

I very rarely mention that I was once a professional poker player, and most of the time it is misunderstood. It immediately calls into question many of the problems brought up in previous posts.

Also, while even excellent poker players can have success in the business world, it is usually when they are involved in solitary activities. It has been my experience that poker players do not make very good team players and potential leaders, and that is usually what larger companies want. Of course there are exceptions to this, but better to discuss poker once you have achieved some success within the organization.

[PlanoPoker]

Use your poker intuition to determine which prospective employers will be impressed with your poker skills. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Moonsugar]

I work for a major financial services firm. ANy kind of trading position could benefir from someone who is a good poker player. Quick problem solving, grace under pressure, high stakes etc. In a trading interview I think it could be a bonus, however if you seem too much a gambler it could backfire.

For a while in the 90s big firms were recruiting chess and card players. Also a lot of physicists, because, as everyone knows, stocks behave like a Brownian particle /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Al Schoonmaker]

Haven't studied physics in a long time, but I vaguely remember that you can't predict the movement of one Brownian particle.

Are you saying that stocks are even less predictable than the "random walk" theory says they are?

I must add that I agree with your comments about the ability of good poker players to succeed as stock traders. There are some important similarities in the demands of both games, as Peter Lynch so clearly stated.

Regards,

Al

[Moonsugar]

Basically a bunch of models, most importantly Black Scholes, have been based on ideas 'stolen' from physics. Yes, a Brownian particle's movement is random and that is what these models assume re security prices.

The physicists build models used in arbitrade trading strategies. Sometimes they fail spectacularly ala LTCM.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi gonores,
I'll go you one further. A good friend of mine, who now is a successful options trader overseas, mentioned poker during his phone interview. His interviewer quizzed him about concepts such as EV and game theory for a while, clearly excited to know that he was a decent poker player. When he went in for his 2nd interview, she said, "I've got something for you," and handed him Sklansky's "Getting the Best of It" (He'd read it already). After the interview, they toured the training facility, which consisted mainly of poker tables, where potential traders were engaged in a 7 Stud "tournament" which would go on for several weeks! Results after each session were recorded; basically, overall results and volatility were the 2 important stats-go figure. So poker is a very important aspect of this firm's training. I don't know the name of his firm offhand; it's a proprietary firm that trades on the Philadelphia stock exchange (and several other exchanges).

[/ QUOTE ]

I work for the firm described above. It is Susquehanna International Group or SIG as we now preferred to be called. It does have a larger poker culture than other Wall Street firms. SIG is headquartered in Philly but has operations around the globe.
I think putting poker on a resume is a very good idea for any finance/trading job, but I would be hesitant to include it on resumes for other types of jobs.

[crazy canuck]

Basically, you can't predict a random variable but you can describe it by a probability distribution. So stock returns are often modelled by Brownian motion with a drift, which makes stock prices gemoetric brownian motion. This just means that the two processes (if you standardize them) have the same the same probabilty distribution.

[Copernicus]

Learn something new every day. I always thought Brownian motion referred to the arc of a dense chocolate cake after you discovered it had nuts in it that you are allergic to.


Please do not respond with similarly inane comments regarding pre-Girl Scout young ladies in any sort of...fervor.