Flop top set, how to play it?

[medloH]

I come from a limit background, wasn't sure how to play this in no limit. I was in the $1 $2 no limit on paradise poker, I'm SB. 3 limpers to me. I raise it to $5 with QQ. BB calls and 2 of the limpers call. Flop comes QJ9 with 2 hearts. I don't have the Qh.

In limit I definately get all the bets in I can on the flop. Too many good draws out there and some people will put me on AK and raise me with any pair.

How should this be played in no limit? I had ~$100 left, so I went all in on flop and everyone folded. There were a couple guys left in pot with big stacks, $200+. I guess I shouldn't have raised so much, maybe just enough so the draws wouldn't be getting correct odds anymore.

[1800GAMBLER]

Overbetting the pot seems to always get callers on this board in my game. But 60 - 70% see the flop in mine. Adjust to your game, players in the pot, amount of players yet to act, etc. Doubt many will call all in with a straight or just a flush draw though.

[medloH]

I was playing 50 cent, $1, and I raised preflop 5 times the blind to $5.

[Zag]

In no limit, my first thought on that flop is "[censored], not the nuts, but I'm going to have to put some more money in there to find out some idiot called me with KT. Well, maybe the board will pair."

Another problem with this board is that there are plenty of players at these limits who think that a flush draw on the flop is gold and they should bet and raise it. Without the flush draw, you could be pretty sure that a big raise is the made straight. At that point, you can make a pretty straightforward calculation of whether you have odds to draw at your full house.

I would generally bet about the size of the pot, as long as that leaves you maneuvering room. In this case, the pot is $20, and you will have about $80 left. That should be just enough to tease a flush draw into trying to push you out.

If someone raised me just 20 more, I would just call. If they raised me all in, I might call depending on who it is. If there is a call and a raise (or a raise and a call) I'm going all in, because I now have odds to hit my full house. (And maybe they have the two undersets, or maybe they are both drawing at the flush and holding each other's outs.)

This is, by the way, what I am currently working on in my game: not just deciding on an action, but deciding what I am going to do in all the likely (and unlikely) responses to that action. Often, when I can see that many responses leave me not knowing what to do, I realize that my action is not so wise. It's sorta working.

Good luck.

[Guy McSucker]

Zag is right on the money here.

I would add that the big difference between limit and no-limit is this. In limit, you can never bet enough that the draws are not getting odds to call, so you want them to fold. In no-limit, you can easily give them bad odds, so you want them to call.

You're a heavy favourite over the flush draw or straight draw (3-1 rather than the usual 2-1 since you can fill up), a favourite over the straight-and-flush draw, and way in front of anything else, except the made straight. In that case you're 2-1 against.

The play is clearly to bet. Around the pot is a good amount. However, I would worry about what to do if raised all-in. Someone could have a big draw, which you're still beating. If you bet $20 and get raised all-in, you nearly have the odds to call just to hit the house, but not quite; the chance that you're in front makes this an awkward one. So here's a possibly foolish suggestion.

If you don't want to play guessing games, bet $25-$30. Then if you get raised all-in, there's $145-$150 in the pot and it costs you $70-$75 to call, so you have odds to hit the full house and can call with a clear conscience!

I don't think there's much downside to this play. If someone was going to call $20 on a draw, they'll still call $30 in most games, in which case you are making more money out of them, and you still have enough to bet the pot on fourth street.

Guy.

[Jon Matthews]

Against the draws I would prefer not to overbet the pot with this particular depth of money. If a blank hits on the turn you need to be able to bet all in and stop them drawing, or least give them bad odds. Overbetting the pot on the flop in this instance gives them a more attractive call on the turn.


Jon

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't want to play guessing games, bet $25-$30. Then if you get raised all-in, there's $145-$150 in the pot and it costs you $70-$75 to call, so you have odds to hit the full house and can call with a clear conscience!

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another problem with that play is, you are giving yourself the odds because you made a bigger -EV mistake just before it, so added dead money into the pot.

.. trying to say that in a general theory way; not in a relevant to this hand way.