handling JJ

[elindauer]

loose and passive 5/10 party poker game. 3 limpers to me in the CO with JJ. What's the play? Is it obvious?

[King_J]

Raise. You probably have the best hand so you want to charge them to draw you out.

[elindauer]

I actually just called. I was thinking of some text in HEFAP, which states that JJ wants one or two or as many as possible opponents. I know I can't limit the field here, so, by that advice, it seems that calling would be right. It certainly doesn't feel right though, I admit.

Am I misinterpreting this advice? Thanks.

[kiddo]

You will find threads about this in the small stakes-forum. A lot of the best posters (in my opinion) aggree that it is a bad advice to call with JJ in this spot. They thinkSklansky/Malmuth are wrong on this.

[SoBeDude]

This has been discussed before, and the posters convinced me that you MUST raise JJ here.

Playing JJ for set value (trying to catch a set and letting everyone limp so you get paid) is seriously diminishing its real value.

There are three players yet to act as well. raise to make them pay to play. and if they call with crap or fold, either is good for you. You like dead money here because it reduces the liklihood you're going to get drawn out on. And it means you're getting better than 4-1 pot odds with only four opponents. If they play with crap thats OK too. It will reduce your win rate, but not by as much as the extra money they're adding to the pot.

Looking in my database which has 44,000+ hands in it played online I have the following results:

On the button: JJ wins for me 56%
In the CO: JJ wins for me 41%
In the CO-1: JJ wins for me 50%

I always play it for a raise or reraise preflop.

So if you're going to win anything close to 50% of the time with your jacks, raising is clearly +EV as it gets you al least 4 to 1 on your preflop money, when you're going to win more often than one out of five times.

Also think about this, and this is very important. Raising preflop is a critical part of why the winrate is so high. People are less likely to keep playing postflop with a poor/marginal holding if you've raised preflop and you keep your foot on the gas postflop. calling preflop and trying to push people out with your jacks on the flop doesn't work. they'll peel a card or two trying to make a hand when they don't put you on a big hand, and thus suck out on you more often.

But beware of the ace. If the ace falls on the flop you're probably in big trouble. So many players play almost any ace hand, that with 4 limpers there's a good chance you're suddenly drawing to 2 outs.

-Scott

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I misinterpreting this advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are misinterpreting the advice. The JJ HEPFAP advice you are thinking of refers to playing JJ in early position. The text says you should raise with JJ in a tight game but just limp in a loose game for the reasons you're thnking of. In late position, you should still be raising.

Also, I disagree with the HEPFAP advice. HEPFAP's big error here is that it does not discuss what your opponents are cold-calling raises with. There are some opponents who will cold-call pre-flop raises with sutied connectors such as 98ss and 76s but muck hands like AJo and KQo. Others will call with the big cards but muck the suited connectors. Almost all opponents who routinely cold-call raises seem to do it with any pocket pair

When your opponents are cold-calling with the big cards, a fair arguement can be made for limping with JJ and especially TT and 99. But, when they are the type of opponents who will call with the suited connectors but muck the big offsuit cards, you've got toa make that raise.

Observing what your opponents cold-call pre-flop raises with is hardly written about.