All in with top pair

[mauisupaman]

Hi all,
I just don't get this no limit thing. I'm confused as to how much to bet when I hit a hand. I've already run into two sets with pocket AA in the past 2 weeks and of course lost my whole stack being too aggressive I feel. But anyway here's a hand involving top pair:

$100 buyin, blinds 1-2, table is very aggressive and loose, 10 players, home game. I've got ony $39 left in front of me after being drawn out in the last two hands I've played.
5 limpers to me on the button with A /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif, I limp, sb completes. Its 8 to the flop.

FLOP
[A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

Checked to MP player who bets $5, player to his left calls, and it's to me. I put the bettor on a weak A and the caller with at the most middle pair (I've seen his calling standards). I figure to have top pair and probably the best kicker. So I go all in with my remaining $37 figuring to fold the rest of the field and have only the bettor call with his dominated A. He's got me covered by $15.

My main question - is it resonable to go all in in this situation?

TURN - 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif, FLOP - 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Yeah, he called and I read him right for a weak A, except that it happened to be A6o (and one of the guys showed his pocket 6's after the hand).

Oh well, so I got drawn out by a 1 outer for the first time ever, but was my play on the flop reasonable? And I know its probably a "depends" answer, but in general when I hit a K on the flop with AK how much should you bet?

Thanks,
Adam

[Guy McSucker]

$26 in the pot, $5 to call, $37 in your stack and you believe, correctly, that you're way in front... move in, no question.

About your AK question: in general if I raised preflop with AK and hit the flop, I will bet about the pot. If someone calls, perhaps you need to reassess your position, since they must know AK is a likely holding for you and they're playing on anyway.

Guy.

[mauisupaman]

Guy,
Thanks for the help. And can I ask you one more opinion about the AK hand. Say I flop top pair with the K, bet the pot, and get it either HU or at most two callers, now on the turn if it looks like my opponent(s) are either drawing to maybe a flush, str8, or perhaps top pair with smaller kicker do I bet the pot again or is there a certain percentage of my stack that I bet for which that answer depends.

Mahalo,
Adam

[Guy McSucker]

My rule of thumb is that I bet the pot, or something near it (rounding up or down to a nice sum) most of the time.

More sophisticated players than I can vary their bets to manipulate pot size, opponent behaviour etc. I am not good enough for that so I keep it simple.

My main exception in no limit is to go all-in rather than pot betting if a pot bet is enough of my stack. If the pot is 60% of my stack, my bet will be all in for sure. If it's 40% or so, maybe I move in, maybe not.

These are just rules of thumb and many people disagree with playing so robotically; but at least this way your bets don't give away your hand.

Guy.

[Jon Matthews]

biggest mistake in this hand: not raising preflop

[mauisupaman]

Jon,
How much would you typically raise in that spot?
Thanks

[mauisupaman]

Guy,
Thanks for the advice. I'll try this strategy next time.

[jfresh]

not saying any of the advice here has been wrong, but i'm not so confident with this hand. first of all, i don't think i would raise preflop, even though being on the button is a good position. a10s just doesn't seem that prime of a hand to me. i'd rather just see the flop as cheaply as possible, if the flop isn't 10 high, doesn't contain an ace, or give me a flush draw, i'm out. maybe for a straight draw, but it would be gutshot and i would have to be able to see the turn cheaply.

with your flop, personally i am concerned about my 10 kicker. if you have a good read on your opponents, and are very confident they have shitty kickers.... i'd go all in. but if you didn't have a good read on the guy who came out beting $5, i'd be very cautious.

[Guy McSucker]

Amen to that.

Definitely don't raise preflop with ace ten, at least not as a matter of course. If you think a raise will buy you the pot, or give you better control over the play of the hand, or confuse your opposition, then it's worth a go; but not on card value alone.

My pot-betting advice was all based on the fact that you believed you were ahead, which turned out to be true. A lot of the time ace ten is not ahead in this situation and you need to play with more care. But, you know the players and the situation, so I was trusting your read when responding.

Guy.

[Jon Matthews]

Here and with your stack, probably to $10. There are far too many limpers here not to raise and you have the button so you will always have position. I would prefer to raise a little more with that many limpers, but you can be sure of callers and you didn't have enough money to be able to make a flop bet that would be a decent % of the pot.

Not raising with ATs in any position as a rule is a losing money play IMO. If you don't raise, you're pretty much depending on hitting a monster or drawing to a flush and in the latter case you may as well be playing A2s. Here position dictates it.

Jon

[Bokonon]

I dunno about that. I thought the point of raising preflop with Ax, good kicker, is that you want to chase out the drawing hands so that your aces don't get beaten by a flush or straight draw.

I didn't think that the point was to chase out aces with worse kickers than yours! You WANT those people in the pot with you. Yeah, they may flop two pair, but they probably won't.

It sounds to me like this guy played it perfectly. He read his opponents -- correctly, and made a +EV play. The doofus hit his 3-outer. (On average, it'll be a 3-outer.) That doesn't mean that in another situation he shouldn't make the same play, if he's really that confident in his reads.