Question About A Hand in Poker Essays Vol. 3 (longish)

[lunchmeat]

Earlier today I was loitering in a bookstore and picked up Poker Essays III (sorry Mason, I didn't buy it... yet). In the essay about steaming there was an example where a player misplays QJs and then starts steaming when another player draws out on him on the river, because the steamer doesn't realize he misplayed his top pair. My question is, what is the correct way to play this hand. As far as I can remember the hand was.

Future steamer limps in EP w/ QJs. Others limp in for a multiway pot. Flop comes Q high rainbow. FS bets, a few call. Turn is a blank, FS bets, a few others call. River another blank (no flush) FS bets, a few call. FS loses showdown to a rivered 2 pair and goes bezerk.

Ignoring the steaming angle, what is the correct way to play this hand?

FWIW, I usually check the flop in situations like this. In tight games I check/raise a late position bettor and check/fold to an early position bet. The problem for me is that I typically play loose games (some problem, huh). I still check/raise a late position bet in loose games, but when the bet comes from early or middle position it usually doesn't come from a better hand than mine. I can't fold the best hand, especially with a backdoor flush, which QJs will usually get with a rainbow flop. A check/raise doesn't do much here, because the people who already called the EP bet will almost always call one more from my check/raise. The only other option is check/calling, and then check/raising the turn. And this hand doesn't seem good enough to warrant a slow play.

Playing it my way I still get drawn out on by people who have the odds to do it (whether they know it or not). And if it happens enough I go bezerk just like the player in Mason's example. So how do I play hands like this?

[huzitup2]

Check-calling the flop and then either betting out (or raising a bet from a late position bettor) on the turn if you feel you still have the best hand is NOT SLOWPLAYING.

Slowplaying refers to INVITING other players into the pot because you feel your hand is [close to] unbeatable.

The play you describe - and, I believe you are playing the hand the way the author advocates (and FWIW the way I would likely play it) - is the "let me see the turn before I commit a bunch of chips to the pot" play, combined with the, "if I can keep the pot small I can magnify my opponents' mistakes" play.

*

Here's a more clear cut example which should serve to illustrate both principles.

Let's assume that you limped early with red pocket 7's.

The flop comes: 9s - 7s - 6h.

The player to yor immediate right fires at the flop.

Calling - as opposed to raising - is almost always the correct play if there are alot of players left to act.

If you raise the FLOP bet, often the only players who are likely to fold are those who cannot beat you. (Over-cards, J-9, etc.)

Also, when the "joker" comes on the turn you will wish you hadn't raised; in this case the "joker" would be either the Ts or the 5s.

Finally, if a rag (OR a card that fills you up or gives you quads) comes on the turn and the player to your right is obliging enough to bet again, you have your opponents' by the b---s.

The "weak" draws will PROBABLY fold to a double bet on the turn, the strong draws will stay but at least you get to charge them the maximum, and if you fill up you now have the option to just call and let the draws try to hit their hand(s) - hands which cannot beat yours - or to raise if there are still alot of players left to act. (With 4+ players remaining you might as well raise - one or more of them will almost always pay for the priveledge to draw dead).

However, let me re-emphasize that this is NOT slowplaying.

*

POKER ESSAYS III is well worth the asking price - in fact I believe (I don't have it with me) that it makes referrence to a scenario very similar to the one I just offered.

Best wishes,

- H

[lunchmeat]

Yes, I remember reading about waiting for the turn to raise a set.

I see your point that waiting for the turn to raise the pair of queens is not slowplaying. Still, that doesn't make the suckouts and legit draw-outs sting any less... I guess the only way to totally eliminate that feeling would be to quit poker.

[huzitup2]

OR . . .

*

Stop playing QJs from early position in loose games :-).

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I'm one of those "freaks" you may have read about.

The "suckouts" TRULY do not bother me.

They did when I was on a short bankroll but once I accumulated enough capital whereby I didn't have to worry about the short term they no longer did.

BTW, I didn't get rich, but I have enough of a bankroll to guarantee that "gamblers' ruin" will never occur.

*

You may have noticed that my posts never mention the stakes at which I play, however I am upfront about the fact my HOURLY online rate would be adequate to support a family if I chose to do nothing but play poker.

THANK G-D I don't have to avail myself of this option.

50+ hours per week, 50+ hours per year ?

*

To steal my best friend's favorite expression (which he uses in humor to emphasize that there is something he really doesn't want to do - or something he wishes had not occurred) . . .

OH NO, NOT THAT, ANYTHING BUT THAT !

*

Best wishes,

- H

[CrackerZack]

Edit: misread the post originally... ignore me. I get a 10 min timeout.

[Dynasty]

Mason wants you to play that hand in a manner designed to knock opponents out. That usually means risking a free card on the flop to go for a check-raise.

It should be noted that the QJs was played in a +EV manner with the simple bet, bet, bet approach. Mason just thinks there are ways to play the hand differently to squeeze out a little more EV by limiting the field.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop playing QJs from early position in loose games :-).

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding QJs from EP in loose games is probably a mistake; QJo on the other hand is trouble.

[DrSavage]

I fold it preflop mostly except in a very loose passive games. The main reason being that i don't want to have to play top pair mediocre kicker so out of position.
I think i'd check and call the river there, with check and fold being debatable. As far as i understand he has several callers to the river, what exactly does he think they are calling him down with?

[huzitup2]

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