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View Full Version : Just A Point About T.J's Championship No limit


11-27-2001, 02:48 PM
I just finished reading Championship No limit and

pot limit holdem by T.J. Cloutier/ Tom McEvoy.

As a tournament player T.J.'s great, but as an author he leaves a lot to be desired.


Case in point: 93 world series


The table is three handed:


Jim bechtel has the puck with approx T-1,000,000

John Bonnettti has the small blind with approx 900,000

Jim Cozen has the big blind approx 90,000


Ok Jim Bechtel is first to act on the puck and

puts in a small raise, both Bonnetti and Cozen call the raise.

The flop comes and bonnetti decides to go for a check raise, Cozen also checks, and Bechtel bets.

Now Bonnetti raises; Cozen folds and Bechtel calls.

On the turn Bonnetti puts himself all in.

Thats what happened and no one can dispute it.


Here's T.J.'s account


"At the final table of the 1993 world series of poker, John Bonnetti, Jim Bechtel, and Jim Cozen

were playing three-handed at the final table.

Bonnetti raised before the flop with AK and Cozen

folded. Playing three handed Bechtel did what he was supposed to do: He called with pocket sixes. The flop came with a six and a king in it. Bonnetti bet and Bechtel flat called him.


If you know your players the flat call in this situation is the single biggest signal in the world. Jim Bechtel is a great player, and I know he plays all his big hands from behind....

He lets you get yourself involved before he does

anything. His hands are weaker when he is leading

than when he is check calling. The worst hand he could have had in this situation is a tie hand, an AK.


Phil Hellmuth and I were watching the action on the Tv monitor when this hand came up, and when

Bonnetti bet and Bechtel just called, I said to Phil, "Bonnetti had better shut down right now."

But he didn't. He moved his whole stack in on the turn. Bechtel won the hand, of course and Bonnetti

came third to Cozen."


The only part T.J. got right on how this hand was played is that Bonnetti did put himself all in on

the turn.


How could T.J. get it so wrong? Is this conscientious writing?

Furthermore, throughout the book we are informed of T.J.'s legendary photographic memory and his powers of observation. He even said if, "a wing fell off a gnat at the end of the table (he'd) notice." (too bad he's not watching the game :->)


After reading this book one is left feeling they

just got rivered out of $39.95


While i'm venting let me add a another point:

Even a rank novice knows 78 suited is a better hand than 78 unsuited. (Can someone explain this to T.J.?)


Go Get em


Ice Rock

11-27-2001, 08:47 PM
what did u expect to find in it?

The gold rules to win as TJ did?

I also have just read this book and in my opinion I found some interesting points and some poor ones (really in large number).

A final comment might be: I'm sure that almost all very good players read ALL the edited books and it's better for us (poorer players than champs) to read all the books just to have a decent idea of the various poker issues, even if we find in a new hold'em book that A-K is better than A-Q. :-)


IMO, Another poor point in TJ book is that he doesn't give enough "power" to small-medium pairs in the right spots


Marco (not happy of those 39,95.. though)

11-27-2001, 11:34 PM
I believe you should reread the section where TJ talks about preferring unsuited connectors over suited ones. His point is somewhat valid. Starting with 78o you either flop to it or get out. If you start with 78s and flop a flush draw, you are tempted to play it. If you hit you could easily be beaten by a higher flush. He just likes unsuited connectors because they keep him out of trouble. I will however agree with you that the book isn't worth $40(glad I bought mine on ebay for $28....still might've been too much).

11-27-2001, 11:48 PM
n/m

11-28-2001, 02:57 AM
This argument of TJ's about preferring his connectors unsuited to suited is pure sophistry. Like Sklansky states: "Just pretend your suited connector is unsuited and you can be no worse off."

11-28-2001, 07:13 AM
I'm not saying don't play them, they're just easier to fold when the when you only catch a piece of the flop. I totally agree with Sklansky on this one.

11-29-2001, 02:23 AM
The book being discussed in this thread is a NO LIMIT book not a limit book. TJ's preference of off-suit connectors over suited ones with the emphasized purpose of keeping himself out of trouble is more than valid at no limit because you can lose your entire stack at no limit but not at limit. This puts a massive premium on the goal of "keeping oneself out of trouble". TJ won the Diamond Jim Brady main event three times in a row and has made it to the top five at the WSOP main event 3 times. These events are all holdem played no limit. TJ is an intuitive no-limit master with a PROVEN NO LIMIT TRACK RECORD to show for it. His preference to play an offsuit connector over a suited connector at no limit with the emphasized purpose of keeping himself out trouble may not make logical sense especially when looked at from the perspective "just pretend it's offsuit" but it is great intuitive wisdom from a man who has been there. TJ may not be half as good a mid-limit ring game grinder as Jim Brier or David Sklansky but as a no-limit player, he is far superior both in track record and reputation. I take intuition over logical analysis on this issue.

11-29-2001, 05:15 AM
But anybody, TJ has stated this in his book on LIMIT POKER. From Page 43, in his and McEvoy's Book entitled "Championship Hold'em: Limit Hold'em Cash Game Strategies" it is stated:


"A lot of players talk about playing low connectors suited. I would rather play them unsuited, particularly in rammin-jammin games, because if the flop comes in your suit, there is a good chance someone else has the same suit with higher cards and you'll being drawing dead to the flush."


I am sure that Tom and TJ are both great players. I suspect that someone merely typed something up from a recording, slapped a cover on it, and published it without any kind of review. This book of theirs on limit holdem is filled with ridiculous statements which they cannot possibly believe are accurate.

11-29-2001, 12:55 PM
I have never read TJ's limit book. Thanks for telling me that that advice is there also. Either his editor does not know what she's doing or maybe TJ is just generalizing his no-limit intuitions into the limit context. There's definitely a leak in there that I can exploit. I've played tournaments with TJ a lot and expect to play him again many more times in years to come.