How to play JJ?

[Relentless]

I constantly lose with JJ, maybe it's just meant to be, but how do you guys play with JJ in an 8 handed game for these two cases:

Case 1: Unraised pot
a) early position (pretend that people would limp if you fold/limp)
b) middle position (one or two limpers before you)
c) late position (a few limpers before you)

Case 2: Raised pot with 1 other caller and possibly you
a) early position (pretend that you think there would be one other caller if you just call)
b) middle position (one person called the raise so two in pot so far)
c) late position (one other person called the raise)

It's just that i've tried playing it different ways and constantly lose this hand.


Thanks

[crockpot]

JJ is a hand that annoys many people, for two reasons:

a. it's a much better hand in limit hold 'em, because a wrong decision will not cost you your stack
b. it seems like it's a "big pair" and should be played like one, but an overcard will flop over 55% of the time.

from the ultra-conservative standpoint i usually go by, jacks really ought to be played like a small pair. many people raise with this hand with the intention of shutting out hands like Ax or Kx. that's all well and good in theory, but the usual result is one of:

- you steal the blinds
- you are reraised by a bigger pair
- you will get called in exactly two spots and an overcard flops

especially out of position, i would tread very lightly with jacks. in late position when i feel somewhat more confident that a bigger pair is not out, i might make a modest-sized raise to thin the field, but i might also just call trying to hit a set. one advantage to raising here is that if someone has AA or KK in early position, they most likely will come out of their shell now and allow you to get away from your hand cheaply.

as for the raised pot, i think i fold if the raiser is a tight player and the raise is more than ten percent of my stack. less than that, i have good odds to hit a set. position is not the most important in this situation unless the raiser is the type who will check a flop if he misses and is out of position. most players i know are not like this; they will bet automatically.

i don't like reraising, whether for value or "to find out where you are." the likely result is that you will be pushed in by a bigger pair preflop or forced to play a guessing game when an overcard flops, and you have made the pot much bigger in the process.

[gambelero2]

JJ is a very good hand. There are only 18 out of 1326-2 hands that can beat you before the flop. I don't agree with playing them like a small pair. You lose too much value. Good players win a lot more money with JJ than loose with them.

All hands play better in position than out of position, but JJ is really tough to play out of position against players who bluff well (see Sklansky's argument about game evaluation and the bluffing/semi-bluffing propensities of the players.

(1) I raise in middle position routinely, especially after a couple of limpers. The better I know the players (particularly if I've caught someone bluffing, the less deep I am (and opponents), the better my position, the better control I have over the situation. (Example, I've shown someone AA, KK for three tempos or so in the following manner (raise preflop, bet post flop, check turn last, bet river), I've checkraised post flop or turn recently.

(2) I tend to play cuter when

A. I'm (and the opponents) really deep.
B. The players bluff a lot or play position well.
C. There's a maniac(s) or tilted players jamming behind me. In this case I may reraise if I've got two and half tempos or less. It's a money winning play and its good advertising that will get you action an a reraise later when you really want it (like when you have AA against AK or AQ)
D. I've strictly checked to release so far in the game.

A final very important comment. You only get JJ 6 times out of 1326 hands or about once every 7 or eight hours of play. Most inexperienced or bankroll overextending players are making their judgements on a very small number of hands. Its only after playing no/pot limit for many years successfully that you learn how to play a lot of the hands that people constantly bring up. I wonder for example how many JJs the original author's talking about.

[Zag]

The subject is probably worth its own chapter in a book, but here's my opinion.

Primarily, I play this the same as 99, but the following exceptions:

Late position, limpers but no raise, I will raise hoping to buy the button. (With 99 I would just limp, too.)

Against a true maniac with no callers so far, or with one caller who I know is very loose, I will raise. (I would fold 99.)

Otherwise, just like 99 I will call only if the implied odds are there to hit the set. Then, if no set, I will fold if there are any overcards, and play cautiously strong if I have the overpair.

[felson]

Crocksucker wrote an excellent post. You have to tread very carefully with JJ before the flop. As strong as it is, you're really hoping to flop a set. Remember, the point of NL is not to win small pots; it's to double up. If you flop a set with JJ, you have an excellent chance to double up. The next best flop for you is rags. Who's going to pay you off then? Either the guy who outflopped you and will take your stack... or the guy with top pair. But the guy with top pair is not likely to give you much action once you've raised preflop. Playing this way, you're going to win a small pot or lose a big one, unless you get all in before the flop... and if you get all in before the flop, you're probably holding the worst hand.

If an overcard flops, again, the only guy who's going to give you action is the guy who has you beat. Since you showed preflop strength, you can try to bluff your way out, but I've found that it's better to avoid trouble spots like this.

Crocksucker's post mirrors the advice of Doyle Brunson. With AA & KK, raise in LP, limp-reraise in EP. All other pairs, play it slow. Of course, these are general guidelines. Still, I've found that most people overplay pairs less than KK.

[fireman664]

I feel JJ plays good heads-up, or against alot of players. So I play it to get one or the other, depending on the game and position. When against many, you will make your money when you hit your set....heads up its a pretty strong hand. Especially against the competition I seem to play against at party, since you know that so many there will play any Ace and virtually any King that if one of those flops.....your probably beat.

[Guy McSucker]

Can you explain what you mean by "tempos"? It's not a term I am familiar with, and I suspect the same might be true for many people reading the forum.

Many thanks!

Guy.

[ML4L]

Hey Relentless,

The gist of most of my answers is that how you play is dependent on the texture of the table and your image...

1a) I generally limp in EP w/ JJ and TT. It is a very tough hand to play out of position if you raise and one or two people call. Preflop, I view it as the equivalent of 22 in this spot. I don't mind limping because not raising here does not preclude you from playing the hand aggressively on a good flop (limping also helps to disguise the hand). If one of the blinds raises, I will sometimes reraise so that I can play heads-up with position (and probably dump my hand if the blind reraises).

1b) If the other limpers fold too often on the flop, I would raise, trying to get money in the middle, and then bet the pot on the flop no matter what comes. If the other players are too loose and/or too aggressive, I will probably limp, hoping to make a set and get paid off (again, I'll also spring to life postflop if JJ is an overpair).

1c) Same as the above. If the game is tighter, I'll raise and then take the pot postflop. If a raise won't knock any players out or I'll have trouble stealing, then I limp.

2) I flat call in all three situations. A reraise reopens the action to AA and KK to get more money in preflop, when you would rather see the flop cheaply and break him if you flop a set. The only time that I will reraise is if the original raise is too small to narrow the range of hands that an opponent might have.

Incidentally, because JJ is such a tough hand to play postflop, that might be the source of your troubles. Next time you lose a hand with it, maybe post it and see what other people think.

Hope this helps...

ML4L

[FishyWhale]

1a, b, c): I generally raise to 4bb; sometimes to 3bb in a) and sometimes 5bb in c)

2a, b, c): It depends on the raise and the raiser, but generally just call, and reraise to at least 3*the raise if the raiser is loose.

P.S. This is the advice I can give you for PartyPoker, somewhere else another strategy might be more appropriate.

[crockpot]

andy glazer wrote that beyond the two flops you described, the best flop texture for JJ is something like AQ7, so you can throw away your hand without any regrets if there is action. i agree with him.

[gambelero2]

A tempo is a pot sized bet. Let's say you have the smallest stack at the table, but have enough for a raise before the flop and a near pot sized bet after the flop--you're carrying two tempos. If you have enough to bet near the pot on the turn, you're carrying three tempos.

It's a more efficient explanator than money to blind. Let's say you have $250 in a 5-10 blind. If one person limps to you on the button, you're carrying about 2 1/2 tempos. If 6 people limp in a loose game, you're only carrying a tempo and a half.

How deep (number of tempos) you are has a very big impact on the way you should play hands like JJ.

[Guy McSucker]

Thanks for the explanation.

I completely agree that it makes good sense to think of stack size in these terms, and I'm actually a bit surprised that I haven't come across this terminology (or another one) anywhere. Every important concept deserves a name.

Thanks again!

Guy.

[mobes]

I would bet the pot in all those situations with JJ.

[Dwayne]

In no-limit Hold'em I have seen more money lost with JJ than any other hand.

[lorinda]

I constantly lose with JJ, maybe it's just meant to be, but how do you guys play with JJ in an 8 handed game for these two cases:



Flop one.

Lori

[qwerty]

Hi,

A long time ago, a very good poster (is Nattdog still posting now ?) made this very interesting comment about JJ:

What flop do you like that does not contain a J? Think about it...

Qwerty