Spouting off regarding minimum raises in pot / no limit! POLL

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Did I mention that I HATE minimum raises in pot or no limit poker? No? Well... I HATE MINIMUM RAISES IN POT OR NO LIMIT POKER.

What info do you really gain by facing a minimum raise?

Answer:

None.

What benefit do you really gain by MAKING a minimum raise?

Answer:

None.

It just kinda ticks me off... In case I hadn't already mentioned that.

To me it says "Hey! I'm a stupid moron! I don't have the BALLS to raise the whole pot, or I'm SO stup-id that I'm going to play a strong hand like my little sister!"

Either that, or it says "hey, I'm a loose-aggressive moron who likes to pointlessly jack up the pot, yet I have not progressed past the mentality I had when I first started to make a pathetic attempt to terrorize the calling stations at the excalibur early sunday mornings, before the buffet re-opens."

And now for the poll...



OK. I'm better now. Thanks for listening. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Ulysses]

I love to face minimum raises because they do three things for me:

a) If I was stone-cold bluffing, they let me escape before doing something stupid like bluffing again into a made hand.

b) If I'm drawing, they give me a good price to see the next card.

c) If I have a big hand, they re-open the betting for me so I can pump it up some more.

I make them sometimes, usually to induce a big raise from a player I can count on to move on me when he senses weakness.

I also make them sometimes against weak players who I know will react to a minimum raise the same way they will react to a pot raise.

[crockpot]

i agree that there are situations where i hate minimum raises, but there are also plenty where i LOVE them.

there are some players who will use min bets to peddle the nuts (which saves people money), but for the vast majority it is a glaring sign of weakness. (virtually no one ever mixes this up.) when the others flat call the min bet, this is another huge sign of weakness. knowing that everyone is weak and that i can pick up the pot with a big raise is a huge advantage.

if my opponent is the type to bet min with the nuts, great! i ordinarily can't afford to stay in with top set against a nut flush in PLO, or an overpair against a made full house. when the bet is min, i easily have the odds i need to continue.

i won't make min raises myself, of course, but i welcome my weak opponents to do so.

now, here is a true pet peeve of mine: when someone makes an absolutely hopeless big bluff into a multiway pot, forcing you to fold a hand that would have won with a free card.

the hand i posted where someone decided to bet 2/3 the size of the pot with no hand into a nine-way field when T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif flopped in PLO8 was an example. five people called the flop bet. nice bluff!! after i folded my eventual two-way winner, the betting on the turn went: flop bettor checks, caller A bets $2, caller B raises to $10, flop bettor check-reraises to $18, still with no hand.

where do these morons come from, and why can't they just let me in to win a pot?!

[Gainsay]

The worst thing about min raises is definitely that they give people in multiway pots who were trying to check-raise another chance to bet. Other than that I'm happy to see my opponents making them.

[Guy McSucker]

there are some players who will use min bets to peddle the nuts (which saves people money), but for the vast majority it is a glaring sign of weakness. (virtually no one ever mixes this up.)

This is a key point. Some players min raise as a bluff (!!!), some do it on a draw, and some do it with the nuts. Once you know who is who, you are very rarely going to be wrong.

Guy.

[The Gift Of Gab]

Online 2.50/5.00. I open limp on the button with 69h. SB calls, BB raises the minimum, and we all call. BB has 650, and I have him covered.

Flop is A57 twotone. He bets the minimum. I smell weakness and raise maybe 12 more. SB folds, and BB reraises the minimum. Now I smell great strength. I call, and the pot stands at about 65.

Turn is some rag. He checks, I check.

River is an 8. I have the nuts. BB instantly goes all-in for 600+. You already know which set he flopped.

I like minimum raises.

[gomberg]

Nice hand,

I had a hand the other night in a similar situation where they guy usually limit raises, but this time didn't even do that w/ AA! I open limped on the button w/ TJ, the sb completed and the BB checked w/ AA. Sure enough, I flop the nuts, call him on the flop, then raise the turn and he reaises all-in for $200 or so. He didn't even flop the trips and pushed in with one pair.

That's the problem with limping or limit-raising with big hands out of position - it's easy to lose your stack that way.

-Jeff

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I especially like your add-on poll Crock. I voted for hating habitual min raisers more, of course.

I thought this topic would ellicit some good responses, and it did. Thanks guys!

I'm going to be off to do some REAL work (BLA) for a few days, so I may not respond to everyone. Anyone who feels their words are SO important that I MUST hear them can just PM me.

al

[lorinda]

The following is an approximate hand and conversation that occured yesterday, and shows you what I think of min raises.

.1/.25 nl

My hand 4c5c (BB)
His hand AhAd

Preflop, HE raises 25c, myself and six others call

Flop Ac 2d 9s

checked to AA, he bets 25c, everyone calls

turn Jc

Checked to AA, he bets 25c, just me calls

river Qc

I bet $4, he raises to $15 all in

I call and win a nice pot (This hand is an approximation, but certainly he had AAA)

Him: This always happens to me
Me: Whats that?
Him: I bet all the way and some idiot calls me
Me: Those were BETS? Sorry, I thought a chip fell off your stack.

Now I'm not proud of teaching the fishy, but I couldn't resist.

My point is that I just totally ignore minimum bets 95%+ of the time and treat it as if a chip fell into the pot.

So yes, I WILL pay you 25c if you want me to.

Lori

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
Him: This always happens to me
Me: Whats that?
Him: I bet all the way and some idiot calls me
Me: Those were BETS? Sorry, I thought a chip fell off your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're nicer than me. I tend to response with something like:

"Yes, there was an idiot in that pot."

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[crockpot]

i just realized that we should have a third and obvious option in this poll:

Players who bet min without a hand when someone is obviously planning a check-raise, thus denying you a free card that could have won you the pot.

i just got hit by one of these in my plo8 game, forcing me to fold top set. the bettor folded, of course.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

With 27 votes...

17 HATE
10 LIKE

There! See! That proves it! Despite the responses, the polls don't lie! Just look at California and Florida! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[crockpot]

hey hey, let's let the record show that completely hopeless bluffs won my poll, despite the fact that i accidentally voted for min bets. (oops!)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

On your poll I voted for habitual min bettors as being more annoying. I did so because I find the hopeless bluffers to be more along the lines of irritating than annoying. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[ccwhoelse?]

[ QUOTE ]
Him: This always happens to me
Me: Whats that?
Him: I bet all the way and some idiot calls me
Me: Those were BETS? Sorry, I thought a chip fell off your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am stealing that. it is my new away message. and no, you can't have it back. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[scrub]

I would make the argument that if you know how your opponent reacts to a minimum raise, and you mix up how you use it, it can be a deceptive and powerful weapon if used sparingly.

There are a lot of players in the smaller games I play in who think the minimum raise shows weakness and often push heads up against it. Makes sense to minimum raise them sometimes. Especially in very small pots with hands that are tough to suck out on.

There are also a lot of opponents who think minimum raising is extremely suspicious. Makes sense to minimum raise them on the come sometimes.

It's obviously a bad play against strong opposition, and it's obviously a bad play if you're prepared to pay off when your min. raise with a strong hand doesn't get reraised and you get sucked out on.

But since I don't pay off that much and I very rarely see anything even approaching strong opposition at the tables I play, I think the occasional situational use of the min raise is a good play. If you're against a player who thinks it's a rock solid tell in one direction or the other, it's deceptive as heck. And that's a +EV thing...:)