calling with anything in large pots

[Lottery Larry]

i was not sure if this was the correct play or not.

seven people cap preflop. you are in the big blind with 5 and 4 of diamonds. the flop is K 8 3 with one diamond. the under the gun player bets, all call to you. there are now 39 bets in the pot.

should you call here with a backdoor straight, backdoor flush and draws to three-of-a-kind?

if yes- is there any hand that you should NOT call with in this situation?
what are the odds of being beaten if you catch your runner-runner flush? how about the straight? or your trips? are the odds of winning with trips much greater if it was runner-runner, than if you matched one of the flop cards?


if no- would you call with any lower pocket pair here- as in Queens or lower? higher suited cards that aren't the best or second-best draw?
do you automatically call if you pair with the board?

LL

[Nottom]

I think in that situation, you have an easy call on the flop with your BD straight and flush draws. I don't think I would call here with anything worse than what you have though since you can easily make a second best hand calling and just the BD straight is a stretch to call even with the massive pot odds. I would definately be calling with any pocket pair here since you have more than enough odds to spike a set.

[Copernicus]

My first question would be HTH you called a capped pre-flop with 54s?

At this point, without doing the math, I would think you are pot-bound for one more card even if there are raises with any two cards and probably for 2 cards. If you think, however, that there is going to be raising after your call, I would get out and odds be damned. This is way to high variance a play for me.

[Stork]

Im gunna agree with the previous poster and say that you shouldn't be in the pot in the first place with a speculative hand when the pot is capped preflop

[huzitup2]

I'll assume that you got "sandwhiched" between raisors; if you called two (or more) bets cold when the action first reached you I think you need to re-think THIS decision.

That said, since a call on the flop by you will close the action there is no way you can throw this hand away; you are less than a 10-1 underdog to make trips, a straight, or a flush.

You didn't say whether the flop was a rainbow, but even if it came with two of the same suit I can't imagine folding your hand.

It is vital that you not "go to war" if you make your flush, especially if there are still several players left at the river; there are alot of legitimate hands that are not the best hand at the moment that could back into a higher flush than yours if you do catch running diamonds.

It goes without saying that if you make your flush and the board pairs you have even less incentive to get in the last bet on the river; for that matter, I would give alot of thought to abandoning the hand if you catch a board pairing diamond on the turn and there was any significant action.

The irony here is that you would probably be correct in calling even without the flush draw; 39-1 is enough even if your only draw was to the straight since MOST of the time if you hit your straight it will be the nuts - not to mention the fact that a straight made with this flop should get you an unbelievable amount of action.

As far as calling with a pocket pair below Kings - THIS is another matter.

If the situation is ideal - your trip card cannot put three to a suit on board (and preferrably is 9s - Qs so as to minimize the chances that you are drawing dead to a set of 8s, and to also minimize the chances that you spike a set on the turn only to have someone else hit a bigger one on the river) I WOULD call, however I'd rather have your hand than a pocket pair.

The nice thing about your draw is that you could - and IMO, should - play it if you KNEW you were up against top set [Kings].

Your chances of winning if you hit either your straight or flush are somewhere between good and great; with a pocket pair there is a legitimate chance that spiking a set on the turn is going to cost you a fortune.

To sum it up, you PROBABLY shouldn't have gotten this far.

However, since you're already here I believe calling is almost automatic.

I make a concerted effort not to be provocational when I post an opinion, but I'll go on the record as saying that anyone who would fold your hand in this situation does not have a firm grasp on post-flop play.

If anyone thinks folding is even an option here I would LOVE to hear their reasoning.

Hope you hit your hand.

- Regards,

- H

[Lottery Larry]

"I'll assume that you got "sandwhiched" between raisors; if you called two (or more) bets cold when the action first reached you I think you need to re-think THIS decision."

called one raise in the blind, then two more raises were called by everyone still in, so decided to call. Probably not a good decision, but not the main point of my post.

"You didn't say whether the flop was a rainbow, but even if it came with two of the same suit I can't imagine folding your hand."

this is an interesting statement. i never would have considered calling at all if the flop was a two-flush in the other direction.

"The irony here is that you would probably be correct in calling even without the flush draw; 39-1 is enough even if your only draw was to the straight since MOST of the time if you hit your straight it will be the nuts "

the only nut draw is the Ace and two as the last two cards. Are you saying most of the time because it is unlikely that others are playing ten-nine or nine-five if the 7 and 6 come?

"not to mention the fact that a straight made with this flop should get you an unbelievable amount of action."

with that many callers, would it?

"The nice thing about your draw is that you could - and IMO, should - play it if you KNEW you were up against top set [Kings]."

interesting as well- so you are saying that if we take the runner-runner trips away from the outs, the straight and flush alone are worth it if i know i'm against trip kings? i assume you are talking heads up?

"To sum it up, you PROBABLY shouldn't have gotten this far.
However, since you're already here I believe calling is almost automatic.... but I'll go on the record as saying that anyone who would fold your hand in this situation does not have a firm grasp on post-flop play.
If anyone thinks folding is even an option here I would LOVE to hear their reasoning."

did check fold the flop- thought the chances of drawing out AND beating the six other players were too small to make it worthwhile.
i take it then that the math says that the drawing chances and the chances of beating 6 others who called 4 bets preflop is better than the pot odds of 39-1. really, 21 1/2- 1 1/2, since if you call the flop, you probably have to call the turn if you get a pair or one more to the straight/flush?

"Hope you hit your hand."

guess i should have talked to you beforehand. runner-runner trips came and would have won.

[Bozeman]

You have 2,6 for another nut (backdoor) draw.

If you are against trip kings, other hands except those that would beat your backdoor flush are generally welcome.

Craig

[Louie Landale]

The key feature here is that the bet is on your left and your call would close the action. This is MUCH different than had the SB bet into you on the flop...

[huzitup2]

A-2 is not the only turn/river combination that leaves you with the nuts.

6-2 also makes your hand unbeatable, as does the (admitedly remote) runner, runner straight flush.

As far as 6-7 goes, if this arrives and you lose to a better STRAIGHT, you have a fantastic bad beat story to tell.

Your only loss - as I believe you pointed out - would be to 9-5 or T-9; it COULD happen, but it's such a long shot I don't believe it ought to be factored in when making this decision.

I don't want to beat this to death; I am still convinced a call was "automatic" since as Louie L. (as well as myself in my original answer) pointed out . . .

YOUR CALL CLOSES THE ACTION !

*

When I have a chance to see the turn for one bet (in a big pot), and my flop call closes the action, I've been known to make a few, er, uh, "interesting" calls.

I know I won't get RICH making them, but I'm 99% sure I'm AHEAD from making them.

*

Tough break in the hand, BUT -

If you would have won with running trips (you didn't say wheter they were 4s or 5s) . . .

Would you have called a bet on the turn holding one small [split] pair knowing you could very well be drawing dead.

*

If the story had ended with you folding to the flop bet and missing out on a straight or flush, you'd (IMO) be correct in giving yourself a gentle kick in the ---.

*

Given the way it turned out it would seem you simply saved a bet on the flop - I can't see how you could have won the hand unless the turn got checked around.

*

Chin up - "never get upset (and NEVER stay upset) about one hand when there are a million hands you haven't played yet".

(Author: unknown)

Best wishes,

- H

[huzitup2]

When you are drawing to a longshot runner/runner hand (or even to a "traditional" straight or flush draw) if you know - or strongly suspect - that you are up against a set, you would actually prefer to be up against THREE sets; these hands are not "in your way" (nor are any other pocket pairs).

- H

[huzitup2]

I may have implied that calling with a pocket pair would be incorrect in this scenario; I didn't intend to - I would almost definitely call with such a hand.

However, I would still rather have "Larry's" hand.

It seems as though this is one of those occasions when "Morten's Theorum" applies.

I'd feel more comfortable calling with a p/p (smaller than 8's) if there were a few less people in the pot.

Granted my potential payoff would be a little smaller, but my chance(s) of drawing dead would be substantially reduced.

Against a full field - such as this one - I not only have to worry about KK or 88 being out there, I have to be a bit concerned about spiking my (for ex.) "5" only to have some stubborn ---- overpay for the chance to hit HIS set on the river - AND SUCCEED.

That said, I WOULD definitely call with any pair here and simply take my chances.

-H

[Lottery Larry]

... by 5 bets, for one thing.

however i agree that it is much different since you would almost expect a raise behind and therefore you would have no implied odds

[Boopotts]

This isn't a real implied odds situation, since you're not going to improve to a winning hand on the turn and it's unlikely that you're going to get inordinate action on the river if you do make a winning hand. However, , at 39-1 I'd just have to peel here and try to pick up a draw.