Raised on the turn

[Coilean]

I'm in a fairly aggressive 40-80 game at the Commerce. I pick up AKo in CO+1 and raise two EP limpers, the new player posting in the CO calls 1 more, the button folds, and everyone else calls.

Six of us see the flop of K T 6 rainbow. Checked to me, I bet, the poster raises, one EP limper cold calls, I reraise, and both my opponents call.

The turn is an 8, spade draws now possible. I bet, CO raises, limper folds. What's your plan for the rest of the hand?

[lockitup]

Is the K on the board a spade?

If it isn't, your opponent's call of the threebet on the flop and raise on the turn looks like top pair that picked up a flush draw. Though it's possible he flopped top two or a set and wanted to make sure you bet out on the turn, I think that scenario is less likely.

I don't think you gain much by three-betting the turn, since your opponent will likely fold the river if he doesn't hit his draw. And, of course, you may already be behind. I would call the raise and check-call the river. The thinking being that he's likely to bet the river when checked to, regardless of what falls.

[LotusX]

I think a call is definitely in order.


Although he may be fooling around with a draw he picked up on the turn, try and keep in mind that you 3 bet the flop. Usually preflop raisers (who raise after limpers) who 3 bet the flop aren't going to lay down their hand. He knows this. I think he had some sort of mediocre starting hand turn into two pair(like KT or K8) that he called preflop with since he already had his post in.

If this is the case, you have lots of outs, the problem is you just aren't sure which ones are outs. If the bottom card pairs, you can lead out or check raise the river. If an ace comes i'd lead out (if he has 2 pair he might even raise, and also its a tough card for him to bluff on if he was on spades).

If you don't improve and the board gets even scarier (a spade comes), you have a tough call but the pot will be quite darn big at this point.

It makes it tougher since he is a new player.


I'd be interested in hearing some results at some point.

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he had some sort of mediocre starting hand turn into two pair(like KT or K8) that he called preflop with since he already had his post in. If this is the case, you have lots of outs,...

[/ QUOTE ]

Three, is not a lot of outs.

[ QUOTE ]
...the problem is you just aren't sure which ones are outs. If the bottom card pairs, you can lead out or check raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kings over sixes do not beat kings over tens or kings over eights.

[Kevin J]

I'd say fold (against an unkown opponent), but I don't feel like getting flamed. I can tell you I'd feel better about calling the turn raise had the flop come K98, instead of KT6.

[LotusX]

total brianfart on this one, i was thinking T8 and T6 etc, not KT K8. In that case, yes you only have 3 outs. If he has something like T8, you have 2 additional outs for the kings then.


sorry

[andyfox]

A big range of hands one could put him on. My default position here is to assume that since he just called your flop 3-bet but now raises, the 8 helped him. Since he raised the flop, that gives him either K-8 or T-8 as his most likely hands, with my bet on T-8. It just doesn't seem likely he'd raise here on the turn having picked up a flush draw, given that he's got to put you on a pretty big hand.

But what the hell do I know? I'd call here on the turn and bet the river if an Ace or 6 came. Otherwise I'd check-call.

Good seeing you. Enjoy the rest of your stay.

Andy

[DocHollyday]

I mostly agree with what the others said. Can you post the result? I'm pretty curious how it turned out.

[Kevin J]

Hi Andy-

Just curious what you would do if you bet the river after the six paired and got raised again... The pot's pretty big now and you've got top pair/best kicker. Do you call?

[Michael J. Sykes]

I think the most logical hand for CO is K8. If he flopped a set or two pair, he should be more likely to either slowplay or 4-bet the flop. One pair with a flush draw is also possible, though a semibluff turn raise with this holding seems imprudent. I would call him down...or bet the river if I spiked an ace.

-MJS

[NajdorfDefense]

Why is his having 66 out of the question here? He called a raise pre-flop, raised you on the flop, called your re-raise, and raises you on the river.

It's a hand I'd think about, anyway. Maybe I'm crazy, but that's what i'd do with 66. Less likely than K8s, but still.

Naj

Wouldn't you 4-bet the flop with 66 with a straight draw on the board?

[Coilean]

I called CO's turn raise. The river came a small brick, I checked, and he checked behind me. I showed my AK, he showed a K and folded. Reraising the turn seemed a bit foolhardy since I'm not willing to fold to a 4-bet here against a relatively unknown opponent, but I really hate it anytime I check the best hand on the river /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

I probably should have posted the hand up to my check on the river, as upon reflection, the river is a more interesting decision than the turn. Since I am calling a bet on the river anyway, betting the river is almost certainly correct here if I can safely fold to a raise; but given I'm calling if raised my check is perhaps not so bad as it felt at the time. Even so, a bet can show a profit here, depending if I would be called by at least as many losing hands (that he wouldn't have bet) as I am raised by winning hands. But at least I don't feel as bad about being outplayed here, since everyone else seems to want to back down after the turn raise as well.

[ragedyandy]

I'd call and check call the river. Opponent could have a lot of hands. Some you beat and some you get beaten. Of the hands you beat, he might have QQ, JJ, QJ(in spades?) or KQ. Of the hands that you're beaten, he might have KT, K6, 66, K8, T8. I think this makes call, check-call best until you get some kind of read on your opponent.

[adios]

1. He may have very well folded on the turn if you re-raised. In that case he wouldn't have an opportunity to hit his kicker but as you state if you were against a set he might 4 bet. He might not though if he thought you might have a bigger set which you would be representing.

2. If you got raised on the river after a blank falls you'd probably have to call so perhaps a bet on the river isn't so great either. He probably would have called in this situation though.

3. I hate missing bets on the river too.

4. He had position on you but in reality you outplayed him. I would think that you'd have to fold a better hand than his more frequently than you probably would to make his play +EV.

[mike l.]

"But at least I don't feel as bad about being outplayed here, since everyone else seems to want to back down after the turn raise as well."

im sure youre killing them there, but i think you should feel bad about being outplayed here. you missed a bet on the river big time and a player of your caliber knows that that's unacceptable on a regular basis. plus you only lost one bet here, but the meta-hand impact on your image (RE: you can be pushed around even when you hold big hands) will have them stealing EV from you all over the place in that game. you know what im saying dont you?

[mike l.]

"4. He had position on you but in reality you outplayed him. I would think that you'd have to fold a better hand than his more frequently than you probably would to make his play +EV."

the pot's huge. no one's folding anything here.

[Kevin J]

One reason your call on the turn is correct is because you have odds to spike an ace even if you are beaten by kings-up.

But would you really fold the river had you bet and gotten raised? There would be something like 17 big bets in the pot. As it was, you got what your hand was worth. I'd much rather miss a bet than even come close to incorrectly folding a 17 big bet pot. IMO-

[Coilean]

No way I'm folding to a raise if I bet the river. But my point was, since I'm already calling 1 bet anyways, I only need to be called by a worse hand (that would otherwise have checked along) at least as often as I get raised by a better hand to show a profit.