Strange problem at the Mirage

[Dynasty]

As I was walking into the Mirage Wednesday night, I immediately saw a couple floor people hovering over a 1-5 stud game and discussing a problem.

It seems that there was betting on most and perhaps all streets and a showdown was reached between two opponents. When I arrived both hands were turned up.

Player one had: K/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gif and 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Player two had: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and J/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

It's obvious that Player two did not have two J/images/graemlins/spade.gif's face-up at any time.

Assuming one of the J/images/graemlins/spade.gif was caught on the river, what is the proper ruling?

If Player 2 had both J/images/graemlins/spade.gif in his hand before the river, would your ruling change?

[pokerlover]

did you mean that player one had the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif and not the J /images/graemlins/club.gif?

[MRBAA]

I rule the hand invalid and money returned to all who put into pot (including rake). Unless there is reason to think otherwise, neither player in the hand should be held responsible for the extra J of spades -- someone else may have introduced it at another time.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
did you mean that player one had the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif and not the J /images/graemlins/club.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The hands I posted are accurate in all relevent ways.

[Runner Runner]

I agree, this hand must be deemed invalid and all monies returned to the players.

[ender]

The hand is null and void. All money is returned to the players. I am one for sticking with the letter of the law not the spirit. I realize this encourages angle shooting, but it's more important that the rules are enforced consistently.

[Andy B]

It's a misdeal. All players get their bets back. End of story. It doesn't matter when player two caught his second J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a misdeal. All players get their bets back. End of story. It doesn't matter when player two caught his second J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Right and wrong. What's right is that they get their money back either way. It *does* matter when he caught the card, because if it could be established for certain that he started the hand with split jack of spades, it would be no different than receiving three cards in hold'em...you're responsible for making the dealer aware of a fouled/ineligible/whatever hand. Of course, you couldn't establish with absolute certainty if he had two jacks on 3rd or 7th.

I can imagine the guy's story to his friends, though:
"So, the 2c brings it in, it's folded to me. Upcards behind me are Qd, 4h, and Ts, so I raise my split jacks of spades."

"Huh?"

Dan

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I believe the right thing to do is to review the tape and give everyone thier $$ back - the deck was foul prior to the hand occurring. Of course I know that a casino would never go to this much trouble... in which case I can't say what the proper ruling should be. If the guy KNEW he had two Js the whole way, I say give the pot to the other guy.

al

[Andy B]

Since it is more than likely going to be impossible to establish when the guy caught his second J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and since everyone is going to get his money back in any event, I don't see where I'm "wrong." Even if the other guy did, start with split J/images/graemlins/spade.gifs, he might not have noticed--he might just have seen split Jacks. This is $1-5 after all.

If the guy did know that he had two J/images/graemlins/spade.gifs, it is a clear angle shot, as he could try to bluff his opponent off of his hand, knowing that he would get his money back if it didn't work. Still, this is going to be tough to prove.

I know that if I make 98765JJ against a guy showing open Kings, I didn't start with a Jack in the hole.

About three years ago, there was a hand at Canterbury Park where a guy announced, "I have a flush, but I don't win." He showed down a hand containing two K/images/graemlins/club.gifs. Everyone got their money back, and the staff did their level best to keep things quiet.

[Dynasty]

The floor returned all money to each player who contested the pot including the bring-in and those who limped for $1 on 3rd street.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

We get to hear a story about a good ruling at the mirage, a place I actually like and don't want to keep hearing bad stuff about.

al

[ChipWrecked]

I don't want to sound like some kind of Russ G. disciple here, but damn! Does this kind of thing happen often? Sounds like the floor wasn't upset or surprised, they were just dealing with it like cards hitting the floor or something. That makes me kinda nervous.

[Dynasty]

In 2+ years in Las Vegas, this is the first time I've ever seen this problem in any room.

[Duke]

I think it was an 8-16 HE game, and I know it was at the Bellagio, there was a hand with 2 A /images/graemlins/spade.gif's. The 2 nut flushes went to war, obviously.

On a table next to mine at Hawaiian Gardens in CA they got through 6 hands or so of a new deck with no clubs, but 2 of every spade in it. Nobody, including the dealer, noticed when the cards were initially fanned for inspection.

Humans do the setups, and humans are prone to err. If I ever saw this problem on an online poker site I would be enraged.

~D

[MRBAA]

In Peter Steiner's book "Thursday Night Poker" he talks about playing in a Las Vegas game where there were 2 aces of spades and flushes went to war. It's a crude way to cheat if you can manage to slip in the extra ace of spades at just the right time (ie. you are dealt 4 spades at river and replace one of your other cards with the ace). Tough to pull off and only good for one hand so hard to see it being a big problem.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Dynasty:

The proper ruling is that the hand was played out of a bad deck, and all money should go back to all players who started the hand.

The only other question is whether the player with the two Jack of spades knew he had this and continued to play. If he did, he should be barred. But the way you show this hand and the fact that it is a $1-$5 game that's very unlikely to be the case.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Dynasty]

I talked to Paula at the Mirage about this while she was doing set-ups (actually, I said "Any of those decks have two Jack of spades in them?). She said that the extra Js came from the second deck in the tray. Possibly, it got mixed in with the wrong deck during a deck change.

It's strange that nobody noticed one of the Js had a different colored back. However, if one of the Js was face-up, it wouldn't have been possible to notice after the card was dealt face-up.

[Ray Zee]

one problem with taking action against a player who obviously started with two of the same cards. one you can argue that he took a shot and that is true so punishing him is fair. but the reverse is a real possibility. he may have looked at one jack of spades and then the other card and quickly saw it was a black jack, and no need to bend the card up farther as you now are sure it is the jack of clubs.
it is the responsibility of the casino to have full and proper decks. they are the ones that should have to make the pot right in the event of a bad deck. after all they take like over a quarter of a million dollars to half a million dollars for a regular goiing game off the table of a game per year. why cant they make good on their mistakes. as it is clearly the responsibility of the house to insure the integerity of the game. that is what you are paying for.
everyone should always insist that the card stub be counted at least every few hands. it takes absolutely no time to quickly spead it out and take a look as the pot is going to be pushed. failure to do so is an admission of dealer incompetence or the houses indifference to the players welfare.