How did I play?

[SoBeDude]

I played this hand against a friend of mine, and he gave me so much crap for the way I played it.

So I thought I'd toss it out for review here.

Online 15-30

He open-raises in MP. I'm a behind-the-button poster with A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif. I choose to just call, hoping the blinds will come along with my hand that plays well multi-way. Oh well, the blinds fold so its Heads Up.

Flop comes: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

MP bets out, I call.

Turn comes: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

MP bets out, I raise, he thinks then calls.

River is: 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He checks, I check behind, my hand is good.

He then proceeds to tell me how horrible my turn raise is.

Additionally, I don't think I should have bet the river, as I'll likely only get called by a better hand.

How did I play?

-Scott

[Barry]

Hi Scott -

3 bet preflop and then the play goes check, bet call; check bet fold.

Regarding the turn raise, if you've been playing relatively straight forwardly, this could be an appropriate time to bluff at the pot and represent a 7. If you have been caught a few times, it's probably a futile move. So if the turn raise is OK here, I think that you need to bet the river. While you will only be called by better hand, there could be many better hands that he will fold and he doesn't need to fold that often (perhaps 15% of the time) for that bet to be profitable.

[lockitup]

Flops like that are why you need to three bet preflop. You both whiff, but you've got position and he'll likely fold to your turn bet.

If I'm in his shoes, I'm calling down with an overpair after your turn raise. Even though your post on the button widens the range of hands you will play, it also makes it more likely you will bluff in this spot.

You must have played against this guy before... his call on the turn with overcards tells me definitively that he won't lay down an overpair in this spot, so why make this play here? You're beating all the hands that would fold to your turn raise, and your trailing the hands that would call. Unless you put him on precisely AK, in which case you can bet when checked to on the river. Which reminds me, why didn't you bet the river?

[DrSavage]

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, I don't think I should have bet the river, as I'll likely only get called by a better hand.


[/ QUOTE ]
This argument doesn't apply here as you are not betting for value but as a semibluff. Reason why you might want to bet here is to make better hands like middle pair fold. You will only get called by better hands, but you will also make better hands to fold.
I like your play fine, as long as you would've folded your turn raise to a 3 bet.
Your opponent's bet/call on turn seems terrible though.

[Zele]

This bet is not a semi-bluff. By definition, he has no outs if called, and the only reason you've given for making this bet is to get a better hand to fold. So it would be a pure bluff. That said, I wouldn't make this bluff after the other guy had called on the turn (what would he call with on the turn and then lay down on the river that could beat AK?.) If he's got a hand already, calling on the turn pretty much commits him to calling on the river. If he's got a draw, a bet can only hurt.

The only reason to bet would be as a pure value bet against a habitual very loose caller, or a player that for some other might be very disrespectful of his action.

[Zele]

I would definitely make the semi-bluff raise on the flop, especially after you cold-called pre-flop and rags like that flopped. Other than that, I like the way you played it (although personally I would have 3-bet pre-flop, but I understand your reasoning. All depends on the blinds.)

[andyfox]

"3 bet preflop and then the play goes check, bet call; check bet fold."

Might it not also go check, bet, call; check, bet, check-raise?

[Barry]

If he had a different hand, yes.., but I was alluding to the hand that his opponent actually had. Unless of course his opponent would have tried the same move on him.

Perhaps I should have said "most likely".

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]

He then proceeds to tell me how horrible my turn raise is.


[/ QUOTE ]

If your raise was horrible, then what describes his turn call with a hand that couldn't beat AK... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In all seriousness, I think that your play was fine preflop, on the flop, and on the turn. I think that one could make a case for betting the river, but I personally tend to check behind there as you did. Well played.

ML4L

[DrSavage]

I didn't mean semibluff as in bluff when you might improve to best hand, i meant semibluff as in bluff when it's not impossible that you have the best hand.
I also forgot to add that not only opponent's turn call, but his river check is also bad. If his hand loses to unimproved AK it's a mandatory river bet i think.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
"3 bet preflop and then the play goes check, bet call; check bet fold."

Might it not also go check, bet, call; check, bet, check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Andy,

You're closer here than you probably realize. If I had 3 bet preflop and the flop and turn, he would have check-raised the turn with a very wide range of hands (any pair or most draws), making it very difficult for me to continue.

As it was, he had TJ, so was open-ended on the turn - hence his call. So had I 3-bet PF, he would have semi-bluff check-raised me on the turn, and probably got me to fold.

-Scott

[mike l.]

"Additionally, I don't think I should have bet the river, as I'll likely only get called by a better hand.'

you sure about that? the very best players bet for value on the end here on a player dependent basis.

[mike l.]

"This bet is not a semi-bluff. By definition, he has no outs if called,"

how about an A or K? those seem like outs to me.

and what of that fact his hand may be the best hand the whole way?

[andyfox]

My reaction was the same as yours, then I realized that the bet "by definition" with no outs must have meant a river bet.

[clovenhoof]

I've read the other posts, and I agree with everything you did, though for very different reasons than those expressed. Also, I would strongly consider betting on the end, solely for the reason that in this rather unique situation there is a real value in not being forced to show your hand.

In my experience, when playing a hand against a friend (who is also a good player), there is a tendency for each player to go all out to outplay the opponent, rather than correctly play the hand. That makes certain lines of play much more likely than if you were playing against just another guy, almost regardless of the cards the two of you actually held. The fact that he is a friend of yours in my view makes it an absolute certainty that if you had 3 bet the flop and become the leader, he would have check-raised you on the turn. Note that basically, this is exactly what you did to him -- let him keep the "lead" from the flop, then make your raise on air on the turn. Just calling on the flop, under these circumstances, lets you get full value from your position, which I think sufficiently compensates for not getting full value from the hand by just calling.

The correctness of your play post-flop is really a question of straight math. His opening raise would be made on virtually any playable hand -- I think you say in another post he had JTo? Also, the line of play taken doesn't really eliminate any hands from consideration. Assuming his standards for an open raise in mid position are (say) any group 6 hand or higher, there isn't a single hand he could have where it could be said that his subsequent bets on the flop and turn are inherently unlikely, or for that matter clearly wrong. After all, I believe he could anticipate that you would make a bluff-raise on the turn, which in my view justifies betting even an underpair on the turn.

So, it's a matter of counting up the hands he could have that beat you, and the hands that you beat, and going from there. (Remember, we're looking at the hand at the point you raise on the turn, so hands like T7 that justify a reraise are treated the same as QJ or 45s or any other piece of crap he'd bet.)

I'm not inclined to do the math, but my guess is that the large number of inferior overcard hands he could have are slightly outnumbered by the number of pairing hands he could have, but your position, your outs, and the virtual certainty of getting a free showdown on the end make the raise a plus play.

And, of course, there is the value of the juice you get to lay on him if you win the hand, which you CLEARLY have missed out on.

Your play is fine. Now you just need to work on your trash talkin'. "Hey buddy, why'd you let your mother use your i.d. the other day? She played this hand BAD, and then actually started cussin' ME out..."

'hoof

[Gabe]

[Buckshot]

Yes, it was me that played the hand. No, I did NOT have TJo. Yes, I said his turn raise was horrendous ONLY because I was on the receiving end of it!

I raised in MP because he posted in the CO. Granted, with the hand that I had it was a marginal raise, yada-yada-yada. I only raised b/c the table was playing pretty tight and if Sobedude 3-bet I could easily put him on a hand and play accordingly. My goal was to play head up with the BB or take it down right there.

After the smoke cleared and he showed down AK I was pleasently surprised at his play, BUT I didn't let him know that at the time. I sometimes do the same play myself and I like it. I just didn't like it done to me!

~stephen

FWIW, I told him afterwards that I thought his play was good. What bothers me the most was how I played the hand. I should've 3-bet the turn and bet the river. Even if he calls on the end, it's better playing by me.

[mike l.]

"You will only get called by better hands, but you will also make better hands to fold."

right ok i see he meant the river, but i still very much disagree with this part above. utg could have AQ or even AJ he will call with on the river.

[Zele]

[Nottom]

He has 6 outs against most hands his opponent would have here (and will often be ahead at this point with his nut-no pair) that sounds like a semi-bluff to me.

Honestly, I like the play against a preflop raiser. If he can get another AK to fold thats good and although he is often ahead here by raising he is giving a hand like AQ a chance to either make a mistake by calling or fold and not have the chance to hit his Q on the river. If he also occasionally gets a pair to fold then thats even better.

Betting the river seems like a losing bet in the long run since any made hand that called your turn raise is most likely going to call again and just cost yourself another BB, if you are actualy ahead here the chances of being called are pretty slim so it basically will only pay off on the times your opponent has AK and you get him to fold.

[Zele]

I meant the river bet. Apologies for lack of clarity.