A Widespread Corruption (LOL)

[MMMMMM]

(excerpt) "Eruviel Avila Villegas, the new mayor of Ecatepec, Mexico, has abolished fines for traffic and parking violations in his city of 2.5 million, the Washington Post reports. "Avila, 34, a soft-spoken lawyer with curly hair, is nobody's anarchist. He's just looking for radical new ways to solve one of Mexico's most annoying problems: cops demanding bribes."

The corruption problem is so bad, the Post reports, that some officers were taking home as much as $2,000 a month in bribes, on top of the average salary of $420. "Avila said that if the anti-bribery scheme works, he plans to extend it to other city departments;" (end excerpt) http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110003989

Well maybe andyfox was right; Mexico isn't more corrupt overall than the US;-)

In the past I've said that Mexico and Russia have much more widespread corruption than the US. It's more engrained in the culture and in the political system, too, and public servants more often take--or demand--payoffs. I wasn't being bigoted or even criticizing them for this; just observing what I believe is a fact. Of course, I got a stiff argument from some of the more liberal posters on the board for saying this.

Actually, the widespread human tendency toward corruption is one reason I think we should perhaps view corruption less severely in this country when it comes to light. Does anyone think the human race will ever be free of corruption? And that, I believe, is one of the largest inherent problems with giving government greater and greater powers over us. The more power government has, the more service positions in government attract those who would subvert its awesome powers for their own personal gain, trampling on those they wield power over in the process.

[andyfox]

Interesting solution to the problem. Perhaps the cure here might be worse than the disease, though. Without traffic fines, the government will have less money to pay the cops, increasing their propensity to solicit bribes--if not for traffic violations, then for other things. And without fear of punishment, one would think the streets will be less safe.

I suppose one can do away with any problem. For example, if we decided jaywalking was a severe problem, we could make the mandatory punishment 20 years in prison. That would probably solve the perceived jaywalking problem.

If we paid our cops $420 a month, they'd probably steal $2,000 a month too. [BTW, my son just graduated from the academy and is LAPD. Their starting salary is around $48,000/year.] In any event, I'd be wary of the statement that some officers were taking home as much as $2,000 a month. We had an investigation at my company several years back. I was present when an employee said that she had given so-and-so cash several times. How much? She said it was generally $5, but onced she gave her $20 in one week. The investigator's report, based on this statement, said that so-and-so had received "as much as" $1,000 a year from employees.

If there is a widespread human tendency towards corruption, and we have a much bigger and more efficient government here in the U.S. than they do in Mexico, one would expect a much bigger corruption problem here in the U.S. But, then again, traffic tickets never get fixed here, do they?

Anyway, I wonder if there are any secientific investigations of the extent of corruption in Mexico (or other "third world" countries vs. the United States (or other "developed" countries). I'm sure there must be.

[brad]

its common knowledge that in southern european countries (france, italy) you have to 'know someone' to get stuff done, whereas in northern europe such as germany it is much more rule oriented and if you follow the rules you can get stuff done.

for example you are applying for a licence or something.

obviously in the first case bribery may be a commonly accepted way of doing stuff whereas in the second it would be very unacceptable.

[MMMMMM]

Heh. First you compare $420/month income in Mexico to $420/month income in the US as if they were the same thing.

Second, anyone who has ever emigrated from Russia will tell you that the Russian Mafia is extrememly pervasive in government and business, far more so than the Italian Mafia is here. It's not bushels of apples versus crates of oranges; it's quarts of blueberries versus wagonloads of pumpkins. Scientific study my eye. Talk to any Russians you know well enough that they will be honest with you and they will tell you what it's like over there.

You seem so attached to the ideal of imagined cultural equivalence that you are not even interested in knowing the truth.

By the way I don't fault the Russians for this. It's how a very smart people learned to survive all the lean years under the yoke and oppression of communism. They had to be wily. When forced to stand in line for hours just to buy bread and various necessities, the more adaptable element of the population learned how to cut in line or bribe the baker on occasion, so to speak.

[Boris]

Hey , what are you talking about? Did you read Andy's post? When are you going to stop spewing the cyper pollution?

Let's pretend that Andy did in fact make reference to some hypothesis of "cultural equivalence" (whatever that is), what Truth is Andy denying and how does his refusal to eschew the notion of cultural equivalence prevent him from seeing this Truth? Furthermore, what does any of this have to do with the Russian Mafia?

[MMMMMM]

Sorry Boris, I guess you are too undiscerning to be able to distinguish between spewing pollution and stating truth.

You probably just need a few more years experience in the world. Don't worry, it's coming.

[andyfox]

"First you compare $420/month income in Mexico to $420/month income in the US as if they were the same thing."

Ok let's say the $420 spends like $1260 here. Cops have a lot of opportunity to be crooked. They'll take it making $1260 more often than they will making $4000. No?

"anyone who has ever emigrated from Russia will tell you that the Russian Mafia is extrememly pervasive in government and business, far more so than the Italian Mafia is here."

Undoubtedly. But what about the Italian Mafia here in the 1920s, 30s and 40s? In Chicago, and New York, and Las Vegas. And a lot of other places. I do know a few Russian emigres [is that the right word? I like it whether it is or not.] and they do indeed talk of how the mafia has taken over since the demise of communism. But there's certainly a case to be made for considering the Soviet communist party as the biggest mafia in the history of the world. So perhaps the mafia is now, in a broad definition, less important in Russia than it was, just as it is less important here.

"You seem so attached to the ideal of imagined cultural equivalence that you are not even interested in knowing the truth."

-No, I asked for scientific evidence. You said "me eye." So it appears you are so attached to the idea that we are superior to everyone else that you're not interested in knowing the truth. You can't handle the truth. [Couldn't resist using that line.]

You say Mexico is a crookeder society than the United States. Give me evidence, not anecdote.

"cut in line or bribe the baker"

Americans don't do this? No doubt they all file accurate income tax returns and don't get their traffic tickets fixed and don't illegally download music off the internet.

Look, I have no doubt that certain types of behavior, that are very visible to outsiders, are more endemic to some countries than others. I do business in Mexico and in China, so I'm not naive. But if our country is in some ways more sophisticated than others, being able to steal and bribe and cheat in a more sophisticated manner is certainly one of them.

[Actual Jake]

"Boy, this country would be better off if it were still being run by the Indians!" Really? Well, visit Mexico and judge for yourself.

No resident of Mexico D.F. (Mexico City) in his right mind would ever call the police. The sophisticated jewelry store and bank heists are typically investigated by the same people who pulled them off. Kidnapping victims are interviewed to see if their families or employers still have any money left so they can be sequestradoed again.

Too bad there's no way the world can accept a big one-time charge and be done with them.

[MMMMMM]

No disagreement other than why compare the past here to the present there. And of course the less employees are paid, the greater the incentive to corruption.

The reason I feel no need to cite evidence for the widespread corruption in Russia is I have better uses for my time (though you mayn't believe it) than drudging up facts on the web to support a statement I absolutely know is true. Anyone sufficiently interested can make that their lengthy pursuit should they care to invest the time.

Also Mexico is a crookeder society than the USA regardless of any evidence I provide you or not. Again, should you or anyone else care to invest the time you will reach the same conclusion. Anyone who hasn't reached this conclusion already is either living a very sheltered life or wearing blinders. Finally I suspect you really KNOW it is a true statement but you are just being a tad difficult in the politically correct sense. You weren't born yesterday and I think you employ many Mexican immigrants (documented or otherwise), and I'm sure you've talked with them so I'm sure you know this; why pretend otherwise? Why create an artificial stumbling block to a good discussion? If we are discussing algebra why make us first prove every time that 2 + 2 = 4?

Yes we may be a few steps ahead of Mexico in the sophisticated corruption department, but they more than make it up on sheer volume. The news clipping I linked earlier in this thread is probably not much news to anyone living in Mexico.

[andyfox]

"Mexico is a crookeder society than the USA regardless of any evidence I provide you or not."

Blatant, pretty corruption, probably so. More subtle, white collar, corporate crime, I need the evidence. Because you think something is so does not make it thus.

Yes, many of my employees (mostly from Guatemala, all of them scrupulously documented) can regale me with stories of corruption by their local cop or mayor, but not too many of them have dealt with corporate officials or governors or presidents. I too can regale you with lot of stories about corruption at much higher levels in both the public and private sector in our country.

[banditbdl]

This may be the most pompous response I've seen on this forum, and that my friends is saying something.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be the most pompous response I've seen on this forum, and that my friends is saying something.

[/ QUOTE ]

My friend you have a lot of reading in the archieves to do if you believe this to be true. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[andyfox]

http://www.uwire.com/content/topnews090302001.html

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
The least corrupt countries are Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Iceland, Singapore, Sweden and Canada.


[/ QUOTE ]

In some ways, aren't these also the most boring countries in the world? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The Corruption Perceptions Index is a survey of polls taken between 2000 and 2002 from nine independent institutions, reflecting the perceptions of business people and country analysts, both resident and non-resident.



[/ QUOTE ]


So the perception is there - is the corruption there also? Is there any there, there. I wonder how you measure perception; this sounds like a difficult task - similar to trying to run a tape measure around a cloud. I always have doubts about surveys, polls, and the indices created from such data.

[ QUOTE ]
"A lot of people say that it's in the culture, but countries from every region are at the bottom and countries from every region are at the top [of the poll]," Boswell said. "There are no cultural barriers to fighting corruption."



[/ QUOTE ]


Interesting statement.

[Boris]

Well the funny thing is MMM, I actually agree with you that bribery is more widespread in Mexico and Russia. I just don't see any particular good reason for trumpeting this opinion throughout cyber space. From what I can tell, you do this as part of your "America is Culturally Superior" thesis. Personally I could give a flying &%^# whether we are superior or not. Either way I'll wake up tomorrow morning glad that I'm an American. I mean even if by some cosmic joke it was determined that the French really are superior, I still wouldn't be packing my bags for La Cote d'Azur.

A more interesting question is why is there so much bribery in places like Mexico? Is it because Mexicans are inherently crooked bastards? Maybe the Mexican system of paying off the local cops for relatively minor offenses is actually more efficient than other systems? Andy raised an interesting question of whether the Mayor's new policy would actually decrease the amount of extortion.

[nicky g]

M,

Corruption in Russia appeared on its current scale after communism, not during it. Certainly there was corruption under communism, and other bad and worse phenomena to rival the current catastrophic situation, but the current scale of corruption/mafia-isation is entirely a product of the gangster-capitalist Russian economic system, which was largely foisted upon it and supported by Western inistitions/Western backed politicians. FOr a good discussion of this have a look at "Globalisation and its Discontents" by Jopseph Stiglitz.

[nicky g]

[brad]

"There are no cultural barriers to fighting corruption."


seems to me that homogenous cultures can agree to be non corrupt.

flame away /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

Maybe so to a good degree nicky, but the West didn't "foist" capitalism on the USSR--the universe did.

[MMMMMM]

Again no disagreement but my statement to be true does not have to be so for every category, just for overall.

[MMMMMM]

The reason I am "trumpeting" it is because I believe it's true and relevant to the discussion.

I have never said nor implied it's due to anything genetic. I think it's cultural (and economic). And I think it's interesting.

[nicky g]

That's debatable; but regardless, there are different styles of capitalism. Russia's introduction to capitalism was to have all its major assets sold off to gangster oligarchs who promptly took all their money out of the country. Most countries have laws against that kind of thing in place until they've built their markets up. Western countries would never accept what was foisted upon Russia. Even if capitalism is inevitable, which I don't think it is, the transition to a free market in Russia was abysmally handled and the type of capitalism introduced was simply an unregulated free for all. The results are there for all to see.

[MMMMMM]

But nicky, faulting the West for that doesn't make sense. Fault the Russian gangster oligarchs perhaps, or the original communists for instituting a system that was eventually doomed to fail, or fault the Russian bureaucrats who didn't better control the transition, but fault the West? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

And just what was "foisted upon" Russia? Did we sell them a bill of goods or something? Their economically untenable system collapsed-end of story. Of course there would be shocks. And not unlikely that corrupt leaders or oligarchs would seek to profit any way they could.

[nicky g]

Read the book I recommended. THe IMF and US Treasury were very heavily involved in the transistion.

[brad]

i agree alex jones interviewed stiglitz youre right.