Etiquette at the showdown

[Luke]

A rule I've never been sure of is who is required to show their hands at the end of a hand. My understanding is that the last aggressor must show their hand first. But if the caller(s) say they can't beat the hand that's shown, do these callers still need to show their hand at the winner's request or is just courteous to do so? How about at the request of other players not in the hand? What if the cards have already been thrown in the muck?

TIA,

Luke

[jasonHoldEm]

You are correct the last bettor/raiser shows his hand first. Then everyone else will generally show their hand if they can beat the aggressor or muck if they can't (or voluntarily show they can't).

Generally, the option to expose a losing hand is left to the person (and most people will muck, it's what you should do). It is my understanding that anyone at the table may request to see a called hand; however, it is generally considered to be very rude to do so. This rule is to prevent cheating (collusion) but 99.999% of the time it is not used for that purpose, rather it is used to embarrass a caller who was chasing a draw or calling down with a bad hand. This leads to back and forth "I'd like to see that hand" which slows down the games. Different casinos have different rules concerning if a hand that was originally going to be mucked would remain live or not if someone requests to see it...I'm not really sure on that issue (I've never played live /images/graemlins/blush.gif ).

Hope this helps,
jHE

[Ragnar]

I played in a game recently in which one player asked to see all the hands, even the ones that were going to be mucked because they wouldn't win. He did it at times when he wasn't in the hand. It did tick some people off, but I'm convinced the reason the person did it was to see what people were playing, and evaluate how they were betting to get reads on them--not to embarrass them. There is some valuable information there.

Ragnar

[jasonHoldEm]

good point...as I said I never played live...the example I had heard was where someone continually forced a calling station to show their horrible draw in order to embarrass them, I neglected to notice the obvious reason it would be beneficial to see the hands.

I'm glad I live on the internet where the hands are shown automatically (in the hand histories).

jHE

[Rams_Law]

I recently saw an interesting local rule twist on this for the first time at Turning Stone (Verona, NY). Anyone can ask to see any hand called on the showdown (pretty typical so far), but if the winner of the pot asks to see a mucked hand, then the mucked hand is live. I.E., if a player mucks a winner and second best asks to see the hand, then the winner will get the pot; if anyone else asks, the hand remains dead.

[RydenStoompala]

The better is required to roll first. Nobody else needs to do anything but muck. At times, you should advertise (especially if you played crap to the river, making everyone believe you're a little nuts). Don't do it often. In the reply where someone at the table was asking to see every hand, I'd jump across the table and "have words." First of all, the host of the room would help the dealer with this guy and tell him to forget about it...he cannot see anything. Secondly, given this nutbar's penchant for accumulating information, I'd take his whole stack. Anyone that worried about what he missed is a really, truly horrible player.

[onegymrat]

Jason and Luke,

Ragnar is absolutely correct. The reason players ask to see the hands after the showdown is to determine what they were playing and how far they are willing to go with a certain holding. I occasionally will ask the dealer to see "all hands" and they are obligated to do so here in California. I don't do this if I was the winner of the pot, for when I am involved, it's pretty clear to me what they have. It is definitely not for reason of embarassment. I can't see why anyone would use this tactic for this reason. If they are looking to embarass someone, they need to check their ego at the door or grow up.

In regards to mucked hands, the hand is instantly dead if the player voluntarily throws them and it touches the muck. If for some reason, the dealer takes the folded hand, puts it in the muck, and needs to retrieve it for a debatable purpose, then they can do so (provided that it is clear that the two cards are surely the ones that belonged to that certain player). Normally, if the reason to retrieve a mucked hand by the dealer is for purposes of viewing what two cards were played, they will stay mucked. I hope this helps. Good luck.

[Gamblor]

First of all, embarrassing someone would certainly dip into winnings - most people value their image more than money, so why would they continue to play crap if they're going to be exposed and ridiculed.

It's the same reason you raise to pick off a bluff - you want to encourage them to fold so that they don't have to show down a guaranteed loser. Save them embarrasment, but cost them money.

Let's say, you called with a losing hand, make it a habit to muck without showing your hand. In this way, you will not unnecessarily volunteering info to your opponents.

There are several discussions in the past in the IWSTH (I Want To See That Hand)rule which could be searched in the archives. It's worthwhile to look into.

[M.B.E.]

Here are some links to prior discussion:

article by Tommy Angelo (http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/i%20want%20to%20see%20that%20hand.htm)

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/holdem_arch_mar01_msg.html#68614

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=37480

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=40711

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=58633

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=93242

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=278693

[slider77]

So if there is a bet and a call, and the caller has a losing hand - he doesn't have to show his hand? I thought the bettor could request to see the hand even if the caller didn't want to show.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The winner is allowed to make that request, but it's considered bad etiquette. The purpose of the rule that allows you to ask is to prevent collusion.

[slider77]

Interesting. I don't see what there is to be "embarrassed " about playing a crap hand to a showdown. It's part of the game. It makes you unpredicatable. I don't get the "embarrassed" part.