Playing weak with a 9 high flush.

[psychprof]

A big problem for me, and probably many other beginners, is learning how to play strong instead of weak. In the following hand, was it right or wrong to become a calling station after making a 9 high flush? In addition to describing the action, I've put my thoughts in parentheses so you can rip those up too.

I'm UTG with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I call ("A 9 is marginal, I should have folded").
Six others call to see a flop of 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
SB and BB check.
I check ("I'm such a wimp, I should have bet out.")
Guy to my left bets, two LPs call, I call.
Four players see turn of [8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
I check ("Finally! I get to use a check-raise").
Guy to my left checks ("AAAGH! He was supposed to bet!")
Button bets ("Thank goodness!")
I raise ("AAAGH! I pushed the wrong button and just called instead of raising!")
Guy to my left RAISES. ("Shoot, that was my plan. Does he have a flush too? A set? Two pair?").
Everyone folds to me; I'm heads up with a check-raiser.
I call ("I won't raise because the check-raise on the diamond turn makes me think he has a flush too, and my 9 high flush feels only marginal.")
River is [8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. ("Did his set, or his two pair just turn into a full house? Is his flush higher than mine?")
I check, he bets, and I call.

So how many mistakes in thought and action did I make? I'll post the results of the hand after a few replies. Feel free to guess them if you like, and thanks for any advice.

[ccwhoelse?]

the flop check is not so bad.
3-bet on the turn. it's very likely that he does not have a flush. if he caps, then just check call the river; otherwise, bet again on the river, but you may or may not want to 3-bet on the river if he raises. that's what i would do anyway.

[GuyOnTilt]

Well, you know you should've folded PF. That's good.

Checking the flop isn't horrible. If you were in the BB with those cards, you definitely should've bet it since it probably missed other players and you have a chance of picking it up right there. But since you were UTG PF, check-calling isn't bad.

After clicking the wrong buttong, I would've 3-bet it, which would probably look REALLY weird to anyone watching the action. If he caps it, then I'd go into call-down mode. If he simply calls your 3-bet, then bet out on the river obviously.

You did play it a little weakly on the turn...But then again, you had the right idea by check-raising. Aside from your preflop limp, you didn't play all that horribly.

[psychprof]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were in the BB with those cards, you definitely should've bet it since it probably missed other players and you have a chance of picking it up right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to make sure I understand this strategy. I haven't heard it before so I tried to "reason it out" as to why the BB should bet and this is what I came up with.

Because the BB only had to check his posted blind and sees the flop for free, he could be playing with anything, including small cards like 8s and 4s. So when the flop comes small, a "checked" BB could bet out representing that the flop hit him. Is that right?

If so, I'm not sure that strategy would work at the limits I play (.50/1 and 1/2). I don't think many players at these levels would consider the fact that the BB didn't have to bet to see the flop (I never have, but I will from now on).

[TBone]

I don't think you're going to take that down with six callers pre-flop either by betting from the BB at those limits. Betting your four flush isn't a bad thing though, no matter where you're playing it from.

T

[TBone]

Can someone tell me why not to check-raise the flop? Isn't that equivalent to betting (or raising in this case) for value since the player directly to his left bet, there were two other callers, and you're virtually guaranteed at a typical LL table to be called by the other 3 still in the pot? I would think this would disguise your hand a bit more, so that when you come out betting on the turn when you hit your flush, if you get raised, you know someone else likely has a flush also? (unless of course the board pairs, someone hits two pair, etc.)

T

[Bob T.]

Calling preflop with 95 sooted in early position is your first mistake, you should fold. It might be a mistake on my part, but I don't always defend my big blind with this hand. Raising is probably better than calling.

On the flop, I don't think that with this weak draw, that you really want to bet out, or necessarily checkraise, check calling is ok, unless your opponents play really weak tight on the flop, and will all fold when this flop misses them.

On the turn, attempting to checkraise is ok, but I might try and get a little tricky here, and bet out, because my opponents might expect me to have a jack, and they might raise, if they can beat a pair of jacks, and then I could three bet.

Your question, ("Did his set, or his two pair just turn into a full house? Is his flush higher than mine?")
is never going to get answered until the showdown. Especially the way you played your hand, with 5 calls, and 3 checks.

I suspect that he might have something like a big pair, that for some reason he didn't raise preflop, and the pair might also contain a diamond, or maybe something like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif if he is an any ace, any position type of player.

[Bob T.]

If you are drawing to the nuts, you might have some extra outs in terms of overcards, or sometimes backdoor nut straights. In this case, you probably really don't have any extra outs, so I would tend to play this more passively. If you bet or checkraised the flop, I don't think that you would be making a big mistake, if it is a mistake at all.

[GuyOnTilt]

Yes, you're correct. When rags flop and it wasn't raised preflop, the BB can represent that the flop hit his rags and pick it up right there. Since you have a four-flush, your bet wouldn't be a pure bluff, but a semi-bluff/bet for value. At the limits you play at, I agree that you're unlikely to pick it up on the flop against 5 opponents. You didn't specify what limit you were playing at, so I guess I just revert to the texture of my normal tables.

[TJD]

I'm a fairly new player as well but I offer my views just in case they help (probably by others slamming them /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Preflop - muck!

Assuming I pressed the wrong button and I am in

Flop - it would depend on the table. With 6 callers what I would like to do is get 2+ bets from all of them. I would not fear another person with 2 diamonds at this point since it is unlikely. The "depends" is whether I think an early player might bet (in which case I CR) or a late player might raise (in which case I bet) or a danger that no one might bet (in which case I bet, to at least get 1 bet in the pot)

Turn - I bet. I would never risk a CR in this position. I have a very vulnerable hand and I would hate to give a free card to a single diamond higher than my 9. In your case, the bet would probably see a R from the next guy and you may have the same decision to make. Faced with the check-raiser I would raise again. He could have anything (JJ and not like raising PF; J8s, Ad8x who knows). If I reraise and he caps it I check/call the river. If he only calls, I bet the river.

Any views from the experts?

Trevor

[TJD]

I failed to mention. The bet on the turn, if raised is great, I would now have a chance to RR. So by CR you might get zero bets or 2 bets; but by betting you might get 1 or 3 and avoiding for sure the free card.

Cheers

Trevor

[chesspain]

A basic question you want to ask yourself:

Why even play cards that really offer you nothing but the chance for a nine-high flush if you will then be afraid to play the hand?

[hockey1]

This is a more or less correct statement of the principle, but you can't apply the principle here. With 6 in the pot and low rags at this limit anyone with even one overcard is likely to call. You could bet out on your flush draw, but it's a weak draw, so I'd check and see what happened. Ideally the guy to your left bets, you get 4+ callers, and then you can raise for value (but note that it's only for value if nobody else is on a higher flush draw)