QQ when its 4 bets pre flop ?

[Tosh]

$3/$6 online game. Nothing unusual about the game. 2 players who I know are very strong players, a few that seem to be total fish and several who are in between.

The UTG+2 player in this hand is a plain bad player and the MP player is a reasonable player.

UTG+2 limps. I am in EMP and I raise, MP 3 bets and its folded to UTG+2 limper. He limp-caps and we both call.

At this time I am thinking that MP has AK, KK or AA. I cannot see that he would 3 bet me without a premium hand. I couldn't really guess what UTG+2 had, I think he just decided to try and raise me out of the pot.

The flop is 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. We check to pre flop 3 bettor, who bets. UTG+2 goes all in because of 'timeout' and I call. This situation seems very close to the one in HEFAP about check calling when you're reraised pre flop with QQ and get a favourable board. I feel very sure that if I come out betting and he has AK he will just fold on the turn. Also if he has KK or AA I'm just betting a second best hand that has very little chance of improving. So if he has AK the only way I'll get more money from him is by getting him to continue bluffing me. I certainly think he's observant enough to have noticed I don't play as many hands as most and I think him 3 betting me with JJ, TT or AQ is quite unlikely. My image is possibly a bit too tight at this table so he most likely figures I have a top hand. Against a weaker opponent I'd be willing to test him out more.

Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I check call again.

The river is 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I think for a long time - almost running out of time - and just check. He immediately bets, I just call again.

So did I properly understand this concept from HEFAP? I was deinitely considering a river value bet, with a paired board he would most likely call with an ace high.

Results later.

[CMangano]

I would lead out on this flop. The only realistic hands you are losing to at this point are AA and KK. Not many hands with an 8 that I think would get 3 bet (except the highly unlikely 88). I would probably also 3 bet but check the turn if he capped it. If I wasn't raised, I would bet out the rest of the way.

[JTG51]

I feel very sure that if I come out betting and he has AK he will just fold on the turn.

I think this is the most important line in your whole post, and your thinking is off a bit here. You'd really like him to fold AK as soon as possible. This pot is getting very big, you should be much more interested in getting a 6 out hand to fold than you should be in squeezing one or two extra bets out of it.

As for the rest of the hand, I'd almost always put in at least one raise post flop somewhere.

[GuyOnTilt]

If you don't think MP would raise you without AK, KK, or AA, you should fold preflop.

After that, I think you should get in a check-raise on the flop or turn. If he just calls on the flop, lead out on the turn. If you're raised anytime after that I'd use discretion. According to your read on the PF action on this player, you should fold if raise anytime thereafter I guess. But I would've played the hand a little more aggressively.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead out on this flop. The only realistic hands you are losing to at this point are AA and KK. Not many hands with an 8 that I think would get 3 bet (except the highly unlikely 88). I would probably also 3 bet but check the turn if he capped it. If I wasn't raised, I would bet out the rest of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care about an 8. The worry is that I am unlikely to have been 3 bet without AKs, KK or AA. 4 ways to be dealt AKs, 6 ways to be dealt AA and 6 to get KK. At this stage there is a 75% chance I'm up against a stronger hand. Maybe add in a 20% chance he would 3 bet me with a mixture of other hands, but its still 60% or there abouts that I'm up against KK or AA.

If I lead the flop or check raise the flop 2 things happen.
1) I get reraised and I've put in a lot more money with a dominated hand.
2) He just calls and then folds when a king or ace doesn't hit on the turn.

I either lose 2 extra bets by betting with the worst hand or lose 2 bets when I have the best hand. And if he starts getting tricky with AKs I can end up folding the best hand.

You're ignoring the whole point of this situation. Under normal circumstances where I'd raised pre flop and they'd just called. I could easily go to 3 bets on the flop but the fact is I am much more likely here to be up against a better hand.

The section I am referring to is on pages 133-135 of HEFAP. Interesting little section, I feel it is definitely relevant here.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

I think this is the most important line in your whole post, and your thinking is off a bit here. You'd really like him to fold AK as soon as possible. This pot is getting very big, you should be much more interested in getting a 6 out hand to fold than you should be in squeezing one or two extra bets out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the whole point. If I knew he had AKs then fine I would be happy to fold him immediately. But the problem is he is likely - perhaps more likely - to have KK or AA, so all I'm doing is costing myself more money. Raising doesn't mean I'm behind either, as he could easily have picked up a heart flush draw and be raising that.

S&M explain what I mean better than I can on pages 133-135 of HFEAP.

[Tosh]

He had AK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I took it down.

The guy who went all in had something like J6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[FR_Mainiac]

I think leading or checkraising on the flop I think would be a better play than the check call. You also have to consider what he thinks you have for a hand here. Up until you checked and called the flop he probably had you on AA, KK, AKs. Check calling probably told him he had 6 outs which was just about enough to call to the river.

It cost you 2.5bb to check call the whole way in a hand you had a good chance in losing. A checkraise on the flop and turn bet would also cost you 2.5bb and I think you would have gained alot more information on what he had perhaps you may get him to fold his kings, if he that type of player.

[Yeknom58]

So you lost the main pot to the flush correct?

[Tosh]

No sorry. As usual I have made a typo.

The river was 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif not 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[J.R.]

You also risk giving a free card if he checks behind on the turn with AK. Not sure how much that effects your decision matrix, but it is a consideration I did not see you address yet.

Another point is how certain you are that his range of hands is limited to just the 3 hands you listed. If you give him AKo, the numbers change dramatically and check-calling loses a lot of luster. There are many players who would also play JJ the same way.

Just some thoughts, no conclusion or point.

[Yeknom58]

If you're sure of your read I think if it's heads up going into check call mode isn't a bad idea. Now that you have EP in the hand things get more complicated. Check caling on the turn and river are fine but I still think you bet out on the flop. If you bet the flop and MP raises you that's ok also because it puts pressure on the EP player to fold his crap hand. Then if it's heads up you can check call all the way.

[Tosh]

The free card thing is an interesting point I agree. Just to quote S&M:

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, risking free cards is not as dangerous in this spot as you may be beaten anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if he takes a free card then he will almost certainly have AK and I can play accordingly if an ace or king doesn't come on the turn.

My feeling was there was only a 20% (rough guess but I think its fairly accurate for this case) that he would 3 bet 'ME' without AKs, KK or AA. I had a pretty tight image at this table - probably too tight actually. Of course I am not certain but I don't often get 3 bet by many other hands.

[Tosh]

You make a good point about betting in the hope LP will raise EP out. But would he raise with AKs? I am not sure he would unless it was AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif. So if I'm behind he'll raise and if I'm ahead 3/4 times he'll only call. This might also stop him bluffing his AK the rest of the way. Thats my take on that scenario anyway - not sure if I'm thinking along the right lines though.

Just to clarify I would never play this like this if my raise had only been called.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Whether you interpreted the chapter precisely or not is irrelevant, and I'm not going to check. You were thinking about the types of things you SHOULD think about in this situation. And - if you lost, you lost the minimum, but if you were against AK, you won the max. I have no problem with your play or logic here. NP.

al

[Tosh]

At least 1 person agrees with me!