Winning $100,000 and Writing About How to To It

[andyfox]

David's recent post on RGP, which was also discussed here, concerned the ability of certain authors to win $100,000 playing mid-limit hold'em. There was some disagreement here on 2+2 over how many posters do (or could) win $100,000.

My sense is that David must feel it's easier to write about it than do it. David claimed, depending on how one reads his RGP post, that he is either the best mid-lmit hold 'em player in the world or the best teacher of it. Let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that he is both.

David suggested he would need to wear a disguise to win that much. He had also said that he will make more money this year, thanks to Mason, than the president of the United States. And that his share of 2+2 publishing amounts to a lot more money than most might think.

Mason has also posted that he hasn't either played or posted much in recent months because he has been so busy with his publishing ventures.

So here are two of the best mid-limit hold'em players in the world devoting their energies to publishing/teaching instead of to playing. What does this say about the ease of making six figures playing mid-limit poker?

[M2d]

The old adage "...a hard way to make an easy living..." seems to apply here, but I think there's probably more than meets the eye. As you already pointed out, the publishing venture is likely more lucrative than we assume. Also consider that it's sustainable. If David and Mason bust their collective asses now, especially with the current boom in the game's popularity, they (and Ray...funny how that works out for our resident trout bum) should reap rewards far into the future with much less further effort. Given current and future potential, the publishing business is probably far greater in +EV than a regular 1K/2K game filled with fish.

[Ray Zee]

plus you have to remember we have all been playing for many years each and poker has lost its luster. as you get older you have much less incentive to sit down and waste a day of your life trying to make a days wages. all three of us are quite rich and would rather spend time on new ventures or easier things to make a buck.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
What does this say about the ease of making six figures playing mid-limit poker?


[/ QUOTE ]

That it is a grind, and becomes more of a grind as the years pass. I was alluding to this in another response to one of your posts related to this subject. I'm sure you caught it.

[ QUOTE ]
My sense is that David must feel it's easier to write about it than do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an astute statement. This also may help to explain why there are so many poker books being written and that some (or most?) have bad, or questionable advice or are poorly written. Writing articles and books may be an easier way to make a buck, or at least supplement your poker income. In addition, writing well is extremely difficult - which is another reason why there is so much bland, uninspiring trash being cranked out as “poker literature”.

In my opinion.

-Zeno

[budman]

Also, even if someone where able to win $100,000 one year, they would consistently have to play well, as they might lose $40,000 the next year and then what good was the $100,000 year?

[andyfox]

Yes, it's easier to run bad at hold 'em than at writing about hold 'em, once you have a repuatation.

[David Sklansky]

No one who could make 100K in a year is going to lose 40K the next. Not playing medium stakes anyway.

[adios]

Definitions:

Labor Intensive - A process or industry that requires large amounts of human effort to produce goods.

Capital Intensive - A process or industry that requires large sums of capital resources to produce a particular good.

If "poker expertise" is a form of "capital" then IMO playing poker is labor intensive activity and writing books about poker is a capital instensive activity. You don't get the money as a player unless you put in the hours more or less (I'll condede that one could get lucky in a tournament and make a big score). On the other hand utilizing capital implies making an investment to reap future rewards. Leveraging one's knowledge about a subject or industry happens all the time in our economy and writing poker books is leveraging one's knowledge. Just a long winded posted to say that states that it's a perfectly rational economic and business decision that happens all the time in response to:

"So here are two of the best mid-limit hold'em players in the world devoting their energies to publishing/teaching instead of to playing. What does this say about the ease of making six figures playing mid-limit poker?"

[Bill Murphy]

Writing a book on, oh, say, no-limit & short-handed play would be pretty easy, wouldn't it?

Interviewing & reminiscing with Bobby Hoff, Steve Lott, Carl McKelvey, & Dan Harrington would be easier than playing against them, wouldn't it? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Jim Brier]

"What does this say about the ease of making six figures playing poker"

It says that people talented enough to make six figures playing poker can usually make a lot more money doing something else.

As an aside, there are other players who were making considerably more than $100K per year playing poker who quit to do something else. One example would be Dan Harrington. Dan was the 1995 WSOP champion and runner-up in last years WSOP (I think!). Dan was also a world-class high limit player. But he found that making bridge-loans on the Los Angeles real estate market was far more profitable so he doesn't play poker that much any more.

[CrackerZack]

Dan was 3rd, Sam Farha finished 2nd.

I love the game, but also seem to really like the security of an income not based on a game with a large element of chance.

[andyfox]

"It says that people talented enough to make six figures playing poker can usually make a lot more money doing something else."

Accept for the word "usually," I would agree. Although I suppose it would depend on the definition of the word "can." They may have the brains to do so in other fields, but maybe not the know-how. Or they may be lazy or inarticulate or antisocial.

But I would agree that for all but a few, the big bucks ain't in the playing.

[M.B.E.]

I'm wondering what the purpose of the disguise is. Is he going to pretend to be some tourist just learning how to play?

I would have thought that the advantages of being known as a poker authority would outweigh the disadvantages in terms of EV in a mid-limit game.

[Ray Zee]

writing a book is work but playing occasionally is fun. as for those guys i have been playing with carl and bobby for over thirty years and steve and dan for twenty.

[MMMMMM]

I'll say one thing which I think is pretty applicable. When you play poker you want your opponents to not be taking the game too seriously. Sure it's nice if you can push someone out of a pot when you need to if they fear you. But David's problem (and I think he said this once) is that people try very hard against him because of who he is. I've noticed a similar effect in tournaments. Even the guys who usually give their money away are trying to win. That might not make them all play like Brunsons but it sure can make them tougher to beat. Even a poor player can suddenly decide to tighten up and stop giving action for a while and play only the premium hands if for some reason he is trying very hard.

[andyfox]

See David's post in the Sklansky Slammers thread. He says people tighten up against him so as not to embarrass themselves and that, on balance, this hurts him in a ring game.

[skp]

Malmuth has written that a wild image is not the right inage to have in hold 'em. This is because in general, you want people to fold against you as the play develops on most hands. Admittedly, I am oversimplifying Mason's rationale but in any event, I agree with his statement.

Sklansky's disguise comment appears to state the opposite.

So, I agree with you...I don't get the disguise bit.

[Bill Murphy]

..until you guys agree to write the goddam thing. Ya'll are getting up there; could go at any time. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif Shame if all that knowledge were lost forever; no way to get it back.

Besides, as Scotty said(in a different context): "It's good for the game." /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]


Sklansky's disguise comment appears to state the opposite.

So, I agree with you...I don't get the disguise bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was pretty clear that he felt he would lose EV immediately if you recognized him rather than taking quite some time to learn how well he played. This has nothing to do with a wild image at all.

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
4. Players will often tighten up against {me] so as not to embarrass themselves. {I} can exploit this somewhat but in a ring game it hurts more than it helps.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's what David said. I think that it does state (or at least imply) the opposite of what Mason has said.
In fact, what you have said implies the opposite of what Mason has said.

Let me put it this way:

Mason says that it's not good to have a wild image in hold 'em. I think that this implies that in hold 'em, you want people to play tight against you and fold a lot.

David says that when he sits at the table, people recognize him and immediately play tight against him and fold a lot. But he cites this as a disadvantage.

Thus, to me, David's stement is not in concert with Mason's hypothesis.

[Rushmore]

I think what it says is...

The mathematically-inclined Mr. Sklansky and the sound businessman Mr. Malmuth are both making considerably more in publishing than they would if devoting the same amount of time to simply playing,

and/or

they both know that the currently-potential publishing revenues should not be expected to exist ad infinitum, and must be exploited to the fullest degree NOW.

Or something.

[Cosimo]

A player is not either tight or wild; wild implies loose, unpredictable, and aggressive. There are a lot of places to be between tight and wild.

It's natural that players will assume David is tight and aggressive; what he states is that others will tighten up against him. Mason says that having a wild image is bad; likewise, a wild image will encourage players to play tighter than you. I don't think that these two statements are contradictory--they don't address the same issue.

[andyfox]

I think David is saying players tighten up against him because they fear he's a much better player than they are and thus don't want to get involved for fear of being outplayed and thus embarrassed. He says while there are advantages to this, on balance he feels this hurts him in a ring game.

Now I have a tight image, but players don't fear me like I assume they fear David, and for good reason. I'd sure be more willing to mix it up a bit with Andy Fox than with David Sklansky. David's skills and fame go beyond what a typical no-name solid, tight-imaged player possesses.

[Robk]

Most of the "tightening up" probably occurs before the flop- people won't want to show down a hand they clearly shouldn't have played. Obviously this is very bad for EV since playing too loosely preflop is a very expensive mistake. And most of the time your tight image isn't going to get your opponent off a decent hand postflop. It will only get them to fold a very marginal one, so the number of additional pots you can win isn't that big. Anyway not big enough to recoup what you would be winning if your opponents were playing their normal loose game preflop.

[skp]

Good post.

[Mark Heide]

Ray,

Writing a book could be alot of work. God forbid! I'd hate to see you do some work, even though you post twice as much as anyone here.

Why don't you let Mason or David do an outline for you and they could just interview you for the details over the phone?

Good Luck

Mark

[Ray Zee]

why dont you do the outline and maybe we will see. since you are only working 4 days a week and have all the time in the world.

[Mark Heide]

Ray,

It is true that I only work 4 days a week, but, like I told John Cole, the other days I've been reading manuals and documentation so I can do my job. I might even get a big bonus. If I had a lot of free time, I'd be posting about poker, since this is what I'd rather do.

But, since you did suggest it, I will write an outline for you, but don't hold your breath. I have to do my work for my employer now, but maybe towards the end of the year I will get started and submit this outline to you. Thanks for the ideas.

Good Luck

Mark