Sklansky and "grinding out"

[andyfox]

In David's post on RGP, he said certain authors could (or could not) probably "grind out" $100,000 playiing mid-limit hold 'em.

I'm curious what David meant by "grinding out." Did he mean working hard or doing something boring (or both)?

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious what David meant by "grinding out." Did he mean working hard or doing something boring (or both)?



[/ QUOTE ]

Probably both. Some numbers:

Standard work hours for one year (40 hrs a week x 52 weeks) 2080 hrs with usually 2 weeks paid vacation and another week for holidays, also usually paid.

Grinding out (10 hrs day, 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year), = 3000 hrs.

12 hrs x 7 days a week x 52 weeks = 4368 hrs. I would think that about 4000 hrs a year would be a maximum for just about anyone.

So I would say somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000 hrs a year is "grinding out". If "grinding out" = time. This may be a little on the high end for time. 2,500 to 3,000 hrs may be more reasonable.

Grinding out = hard work, I think that is a given.


-Zeno

[Glenn]

Hi Andy,

I assume he meant winning the money slowly and surely by averaging $50/hr or more in a ring game at the 30/60 to 80/160 level, as opposed to getting $100k as the result of some sort of windfall such as a tourney win or a lucky streak when taking a shot at 300/600 or something. It wouldn't be unreasonable to win $100k in 10 sessions of 3/6, and that result is based more on luck than skill in that short of a time period, so it is does not prove that someone is a good player.

[Zeno]

$50 hr x 3,000 hrs = $150,000. This is what you "make". What you really make, after taxes, living expenses, health insurance, any investments, and a multitude of other expenses including entertainment, depends somewhat on the individual (or family).

At a 30% tax rate the initial $150,000 is reduced to $105,000 and then you have living expenses and all those other expenses on top of that.

Of course you can have a number of different scenarios and it can become an esoteric exercise after a bit, for example $100 hr X 1500 hrs = $150,000


Still, to Clear 100K a year you must make considerably more. If you make 100K a year it is obvious that your "take home pay" is considerably less.

Grinding out is the proper term in my opinion. Which may be why there are so many poker authors (books and articles) out in the poker landscape. Some good, some bad, some ignorant, some mediocre, and some that should be shot.

All the above is just the rambling opinion of a misanthrope. If you don’t like it, ignore it.

-Zeno

[David Sklansky]

By "grinding out" I meant simply winning steadily at about your hourly rate. The term was not used to connote anything else.

[budman]

"It wouldn't be unreasonable to win $100k in 10 sessions of 3/6, and that result is based more on luck than skill in that short of a time period, so it is does not prove that someone is a good player."

To win $100K in ten sessions means you need to average $10k over the 10 sessions. I can't imagine how you could ever be lucky enough to win $10k in any one session of 3/6, let alone average that much over ten.

[budman]

Any good poker pro needs to grind it out. Meaning they need to sit back and never take chances, get out of line or go on tilt. They have to earn enough to pay rent, eat and buy health insurance (save for retirement?).

I used to dream about being a poker pro until my last two visits to Vegas. I played at the Bellagio both times for 12 hours a day or more. I had a lot of fun, and even won a lot of money the second trip. But watching the pros sit there day after day, and listening to the desperation in their bad beat stories made me glad I have a good job and that I was playing for fun. I played 30-60 with Mason for three hours and I think he might have entered three pots. He won the blinds twice and a small pot. In the meantime I was way out of line and had a ton of fun.

If Mason played the way I did (maybe not Mason as he is independently wealthy) he would never last in Vegas relying on poker for a living. The long term winning pros sit there and wait hour after hour and hope their pocket kings or aces don't get cracked.

Not for me.

[Jeffage]

By 3/6, he means 300-600.

Jeff

[budman]

oops

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Budman...you wrote: " The long term winning pros sit there and wait hour after hour "

Yes, this is part of what "grinding it out" entails. Why would anyone think playing professionally is NOT a grind?

LGPG,
Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Budman...you wrote: " The long term winning pros sit there and wait hour after hour "

Yes, this is part of what "grinding it out" entails. Why would anyone think playing professionally is NOT a grind?

LGPG,
Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerbabe this question is really darned funny, particularly the irony. Let me give you a few reasons why people might just think it wasn't a grind:

1) There are dozens of books glamorizing gambling and poker in particular. (5 or more recently published)

2) Turn on the TV and you see poker players making hundreds of thousands of dollars playing 3/6 Soooooted!

3) While making this money they are partying in LA with movie stars, Playboy Bunnys, and Jerry Buss.

4)When not in LA they are shown to be in exotic locales like Paris, Aruba or on a nice cruise driking Pina Coladas and yes making money playing 3/6 Soooooted!

5) They watch Mr. Dead Money himself, Chris Moneymaker win 2.5 million dollars bluffing with no pair and a K/7 offsuit then winning the Bracelet with a 4/5.

All of this and you dare ask why it might not seem like a grind to the average TV viewer? Do you need any more reasons why it might not seem like a grind to anyone other than a Vegas grinder? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

"All of this and you dare ask why it might not seem like a grind to the average TV viewer? Do you need any more reasons why it might not seem like a grind to anyone other than a Vegas grinder? "

<font color="red"> </font> Yes, and these are the same people who think that Santa Claus and UFOs exist. Amazing how gullible the public is. I should certainly make 100K this year.! <font color="red"> </font> /images/graemlins/grin.gif

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
"All of this and you dare ask why it might not seem like a grind to the average TV viewer? Do you need any more reasons why it might not seem like a grind to anyone other than a Vegas grinder? "

<font color="red"> </font> Yes, and these are the same people who think that Santa Claus and UFOs exist. Amazing how gullible the public is. I should certainly make 100K this year.! <font color="red"> </font> /images/graemlins/grin.gif

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You mean there is no Santa Claus? How about Kris Kringle? Please tell me he exists. As far as UFO's you must not watch too much TV. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously Babe I get the distinct impression that you have become somewhat isolated from the common man (woman). It is easy to see why playing poker for a living might seem glamorous compared to being a grind as seen from your perspective (and mine).

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi PokerBabe,
I'd say it *is* a grind. But if you were successful at it, it could be less of a grind that typical corporate dweebdom!

:-)

Sincerely,
AA