5/10 SB Hand

[Hawkeye27]

How poorly did I play this hand?

Loose passive 5/10 online game.

4 limpers to me in SB w/ J/10o. I complete, BB raises, everyone calls. 6 see the flop.

Flop is 8h 8s 9h. I have no heart.

I check, BB (preflop raiser) checks and it gets checked around to LMP who bets. Button calls, I call, BB calls. Everyone else folds.

Turn is a rag. Checked to LMP who bets, button folds, I call, BB folds. Heads up on the end.

River is a small heart and I take a stab at a nice pot by betting out. LMP raises and I fold.

I dont think I played this hand very well.

Preflop I think J/10o is questionable in this situation. Does anyone fold this here?

On the flop there is 14 small bets in the pot and I thought a call was warranted. But I may be drawing dead already and alot of my outs are dirty, so maybe a fold is better. If I do stay, perhaps a raise is better to put max pressure on the pre flop raiser and perhaps free up some overcard outs. At the time I thought the check from the BB was a little suspicious and I was a little bit afraid of a 3bet and cap. I have a feeling I made the the third best decision here.

I guess on the turn I have to call.

On the river I thought the pot was big enough to warrant a bluff once the scare card came.

Comments appreciated

[Aces McGee]

Preflop I think J/10o is questionable in this situation. Does anyone fold this here?

Completing the SB with it is certainly correct. With 6 people potentially seeing the flop, I think calling the raise is fine, too.

I have a feeling I made the the third best decision here.

I think you're right.

On the river I thought the pot was big enough to warrant a bluff once the scare card came.

With the pot of this size, it's unlikely that your opponent is going to fold. I'd probably check-fold this river. If you wanted to bluff, I think a check-raise is a lot better than betting out.

Aces McGee

[Miah]

I think I would fold on the turn, although it is close. You're probably not up against a full house but it is a possibility. The only thing saving you here is the odds the pot is giving you which should be enough overlay for those times you are drawing dead or loose to a heart flush. Your big problem was the river, looks like a check-fold to me.

Was this in table London on UB? I was playing there and I think I remember this hand.

[J.R.]

I think you intial call from the sb getting 9-1 was fine, unless you know the BB likes to get frisky quite often from the BB in multi-way pots, but even then you are not too bad off.

Getting 14-1 on the flop is a huge overlay, as you are better than 5-1 to make your straight on the turn and better than 7-1 to make a straight with a non-flush card. This is an easy call and a raise to shut out the feild and clean up your outs may not be bad, especially if the LMP bettor is aggressive. I might have tried to check-raise for value an expected bet from the preflop raiser in the BB to bet, depending on how many callers their were. (You are just over 2-1 to make your straight by the river- so with 3 callers I think your overlay is large enough to check-raise for value here, but the flush/fullhouse possibilities make this calculation a little murky). There is no reason to suspect you are drawing dead on the flop with just a bet and a call to you. Its not like the flop was bombarded with bets, and your overlay is large. For what its worth, its possible your overcards are outs as well.

The turn is a clear call as well getting about 9-1 with noa raise yet. Even fishy slowplayers will often de-cloak on the turn. Sure LMP could already be full but I'll take that chance getting 9-1.

The pot on the river has about 10 bets in it, so your bluff only has to work one out of 10 times to be profitable. It seems like LMP has to make a crying call here given the pot size (and may be full already and will raise you), so the river betting decision turns on LMP's propensity to make bad folds in big pots when a scare card hits. That said, he does not need to fold often to make this the correct play.

I don't think you played this hand poorly.

[devinthedude]

I think I would have check-raised the flop and bet the turn and the river. When you checkraise the flop, and bet on the turn, you arent going to be raised unless you are up against a made hand. You also may get alot of hands to fold that you want to fold, like hearts and overcards, then again you may not.

But then your bluff on the end should have a better chance of succeding, and all it will have cost you is 1 more SB, and it will save you 1 SB if you are raised on the turn and fold. And if you hit your hand or your bluff works, you will pick up a pretty nice pot.

I think you played this one too passively.

[Miah]

I think you guys are being too agressive with a mediocre draw that can already be drawing dead. You might get 3 bet on the flop thus getting charged even more to see the turn.

[Aces McGee]

1 bet from late position and 3 callers, and he's drawing dead? It'd take a lot more than that to convince me that someone is holding 88 99 or 98, or that that one of his opponents is holding QQ AND another is holding 77, or that one of his opponets has Q8 AND another has 87.

And his draw isn't that mediocre; it's to the nut straight.

Aces McGee

[Miah]

Despite being to the nut straight I believe it is mediocre because there are multiple draws to better hands out there, one of which takes away 2 of his possible outs, however the pot odds are there to make up for this. It’s certainly worth calling, and the arguments for check raising aren't that bad either, I just thinking calling is better.

Given the action on the turn that’s probably worth a call as well although you do have to worry somewhat about the person acting after you. It is not uncommon to see people slowplay their hand here.

Despite being heads up on the end I think you're against a better hand here and check-folding is the best play. If you really feel your opponent is weak I think the best place to make the play for the pot would be the turn, as that would be when most people would reveal their hand.

[devinthedude]

I think this is an example of raising to get other hands out even if you think you are behind. You have to take control of this hand on the flop. Even if you get 3 bet on the flop, I would still bet the turn. If you are raised on the turn, then you can fold. All it costs you is an extra small bet, plus you have given yourself more ways to win the hand.

If you play that hand like a calling station, you are going to lose your ass on it, and people are just going to run over you.

[devinthedude]

[ QUOTE ]
I just thinking calling is better.


[/ QUOTE ]
In late position I think calling is worthy of discussion. Based on your position, I think the CR is the only way to go. If you are sure you are going to get 3-bet, I would just fold the flop.


[ QUOTE ]
I think the best place to make the play for the pot would be the turn, as that would be when most people would reveal their hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

You just illustrated my point there. When you bet out on the turn after checkraising the flop, a draw probably will not raise you with this type of board, some draws may even fold. The only things that will likely raise you here are trips or a full house. You can fold, and actually save yourself a SB over the way it was played.

You checkraise the flop to take control of the hand.
You should bet on the turn if you are going to call a bet anyways.
On the river, it is close between betting and check folding, but I would still bet, because if it is checked thru, you cant win anyways.

[BreaKBeatZ]

I think you played this hand well and I think calling the flop is the best decision. I don't think a raise here is profitable at all, you DONT want to get this hand heads up on the turn. The way this hand is profitable is keeping everyone in the pot for as little bets as it costs you and getting paid off big when you hit your straight.

If you do hit your straight you will win more by just calling the flop, and if you dont make your straight you will lose less by just calling. The only argument for raising is that it may buy you a free look at the river, but that may not work and even if it does I still think that it is -EV to knock people out of this hand on the flop.

I think you played this hand fine, the bet on the river depends on your read of the opponenet so I can't judge that. However against most opponents I would just check/fold the river.

[Miah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just thinking calling is better.


[/ QUOTE ]
In late position I think calling is worthy of discussion. Based on your position, I think the CR is the only way to go. If you are sure you are going to get 3-bet, I would just fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conversely I would like to be aggressive and raise with this hand if I’m in late position simply for the positional value and possible free card on the turn. With 6 players seeing the flop you’re likely to be against some sort of hand here that is better than yours. I believe check raising out of position is a bad idea because not only do you run into the chance of getting 3 bet, I don’t think you have that good of a draw and then betting out on the turn kind of stinks.

[ QUOTE ]

You checkraise the flop to take control of the hand.
You should bet on the turn if you are going to call a bet anyways.
On the river, it is close between betting and check folding, but I would still bet, because if it is checked thru, you cant win anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Getting control of the hand isn’t that easy when you’re out of position with a board like this. This is a real tough board to put anyone off their hand (other than a busted flush draw, which would also require you to continue betting out on the river to get them to fold) and they’re most likely going to the river. For this reason I believe it is best to call while getting your odds to make your straight. If you get aggressive and make a play for the hand you might fold your draw on the turn (to a raise from what then you would believe to be trip 8’s) whereas if you had called you could have seen the river for one SB when you’re getting good pot odds to draw to the nut straight, which of course you could make and still loose.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
In late position I think calling is worthy of discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the type of hand that I think you should RAISE with in late position.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the CR is the only way to go

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what you gain by checkraising the flop. I would want to see the cards for as cheaply as possible.

[ QUOTE ]
You checkraise the flop to take control of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]
Once again, I don't see the logic in taking control of the hand with a draw...The only thing you are doing with this move is setting up the CHANCE to buy the pot. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[ QUOTE ]
draw probably will not raise you with this type of board, some draws may even fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course a draw would raise you...he hasn't made his hand yet...and anybody with 4 hearts isn't going anywhere.

[ QUOTE ]
On the river, it is close between betting and check folding,

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if you are going to check fold, then there is absolutely no logic in check raising the flop...why 'take control' of a hand and then check-fold. If you are going to bluff at it, which seems to me thats what your intention of check raising the flop is, then it isn't close bewteen the two options, you have to bet.
[ QUOTE ]
You should bet on the turn if you are going to call a bet anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reasonable arguement here...however, I would hope to see a free card.

-ropey

[Miah]

I agree with ropey

The problem with betting the turn is that when you are raised you have to fold and you miss seeing the river card.