Hand eval: am I weak-tight?

[Cosimo]

First, some background. I had read a bit and played a bit of poker (ten hours in cardrooms, maybe 100 hours of kitchen poker) before June of this year, when I started playing earnestly. Since then I have logged about 20,000 hands online and 200 face-to-face. I'm still reading and rereading all the good books, but I don't know what's sinking in. After all of those hands, I am barely up at the two limits I have played most -- 25c-50c and 50c-$1. After running up to around +200BB at 25c-50c and +100BB at 50c-1, I started on a long slide down, which only recently reversed. I'm having trouble thinking that my play is all to blame. I know my opponents are fish; it might be UB, but the micro-limits aren't as tight as my reading suggests that middle-limit B&M play is. I'm definitely far tighter (preflop and post) than my average opponent.

Here's a recent hand:
* K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif on the button. After one MP limper, LP raises. I call, as does the SB and MP. Four see the flop of Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif. LP bets out, I just call, and the two behind me call. Turn comes J/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP now bets out (someone by the name of 'cubswin'); I fold.

After looking back at this hand, I think I played it a bit weakly, but I'm not sure what I should have done or where I erred. What should I be rereading? How much will plays like this affect my win-rate, especially at online micro-limits?

Same days I remember to raise, sometimes I don't. I finally trained myself not to fold on the river to scary boards and some betting when the pot is huge. I'm raising preflop with more hands, folding KTo in EP, and throwing away mid suited connectors if most of the field folds. So what's the hole now? I know statistics fairly well (years of card counting) so I know swings can be brutal. I've booked wins in my last three sessions yet I know that is within the margin for error.

I'm looking for advice because I'm starting to dread playing sessions. Losing money for about a month straight has really eaten at me. I'm finding holes here and there and fixing them, but yet even after "improvement" I'm doing worse! After so many hands I have to think that there's a good possibility that I'm just not a winning player yet.

-Cosimo

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd be raising that flop. I'd also be raising the turn if bet into after my raise on the flop. It definitely looks like you're weak-tight. Work on being more aggressive when you flop a hand.

[lunchmeat]

Hey Cosimo, first off, don't worry about your play being classified as weak/tight, or anything else for that matter. Just concentrate on making the decisions you feel are best for each situation. Besides, as long as you have the tight part down you'll be good enough to beat the .25/.50 and .50/1 games.

If you're at the point where you "dread" sessions, or just don't find poker fun, take a break for a week or so. When I first started playing, the biggest improvements in my game would come after taking these breaks. What worked for me was to forget about poker for a few days, and then study up on one specific skill (like starting hand requirements or calculating pot odds) before returning to the tables. When I started playing again I'd really concentrate on getting the one skill as perfect as I could. This made the losses a lot more tolerable as long as I got the skill down fairly well, and it was great for drilling the important concepts. After a couple weeks of really concentrating on the skill it would become pretty automatic, allowing me to go on to the next skill or take another break if I had to. This approach worked for me, so you may want to give it a try.

And as far as the KQ hand is concerned, I would have folded pre-flop (how's that for weak/tight). I find that most low-limit players are so passive that a raise after others have limped-in signals a very strong hand that KQ probably won't do very well against. Also, most low-limit players can't fold a good starting hand. So bluffing him out later isn't really a possibility. If you know the player will raise here with a variety of hands, then I'd reraise with KQ... Also, I would have called on the turn. You may have the best hand and could draw out the best flush if another club comes on the river.

I hope all this helps.

[Nottom]

Against most players KQo is in the muck after a raise preflop. I'd probably call with KQs here if I thought the blinds would come along.

After the flop you need to raise and see where you are at and to make any flush draws pay. You are in an ideal position to try and protect your hand with a raise.

On the turn its a bit trickier but I think I would raise on the button, since you might have the best hand and if not you at least have a chance to improve. If you don't improve you can go ahead and check behind on the river. Some may argue that raising here is foolish, and they may be correct but I think it has to be better than folding what may be the best hand with a redraw to the 3rd nuts.

From this hand, It would appear you still have some holes in your game that could be plugged, namely cold-calling raises preflop and passiveness post-flop. I would definately suggest you try and post a few more hands as questions come up.

[CrackerZack]

fold PF...ok you didn't, raise the flop, ok you didn't, um on the turn, not sure... bad position to be in. Wouldn't be there if you folded PF or raised the flop. 3rd nut flush draw with only a single club isn't a fun hand. I'd call one bet but muck for 2 probably.

weak tight, no, loose passive, yes.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Fold preflop.

Remember this point: preflop, if the pot is raised and nobody has called when the action gets to you, calling is wrong almost 100% of the time regardless of what you hold. You are in a clear raise/fold situation. In this specific case, KQo is behind the vast majority of hands with which someone would raise a preflop limper.

Once you're in, raise the flop. What you do on the turn depends then on how your flop raise was answered and the action before you on the turn.

[MaxPower]

If you were weak-tight, you would have folded pre-flop. I think you misunderstand what is meant by weak-tight. Read Mason's essay in Poker Essays.

By the way, weak tight is probably a winning strategy in these micro-limit games where most pots are played multi-way.

[Cosimo]

Well I wasn't winning, so I was probably not weak-tight, then. =)

I knew I was being too loose, and not aggressive enough. What I think I am lacking is discipline, and the knowledge that raising with TP2K on the flop is the right move. I think I play timidly, and it's that timidity in the face of scare cards and betting that made me say "weak tight," instead of loose-passive or anything else. I'm seeing many fewer flops than my opponents; about 29% vs 45%, which made me think tight. Tight is relative, right?

I don't have Poker Essays; the local bookstores aren't stocking it, and I still have a few other books to read through again before I get to it. I did spend Friday and Saturday reading through HEP and WLLHE again (and not playing). I like WLLHE because of the quizzes, which were pointed out lots of bits that I had missed. I know Lee Jones isn't on Sklansky's "$100K authors" list, but obviously I hadn't taken his points to heart.

So I went out today, played a thousand hands, tightened up preflop (down to 25%), and was much more aggressive post-flop. I was amazed at how much 'easier' play felt. I know 1000 hands isn't a big statistical sample, but play just felt more correct. Winning helped too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Up about 2.5 BB / 30 hands. I still lost my share of pots, a few suckouts here and there, but I don't think that luck was a critical factor. Against loose (45% to the flop), passive (1.5BB per player) tables, I think I was doing much better.

So, thanks to all who posted. I'll try again tomorrow and see what happens, to see if I've improved my play enough to continue posting wins. I've never posted hands before, but I think the exercise was really worth the time. It made me face my own weaknesses in a more direct way that is harder to dismiss.

-Cosimo

[Ralle]

I would definitely have raised the flop. After that I would have called it down if bet into, and bet out if they had checked.

Consider a reraise pre-flop. If everything works out well, you end up heads-up with the original raiser, dividing 2.5 bets from the other guys between you.

In general I have found it to be a good strategy for me not to raise to two bets very much pre-flop. Also I don't really like calling two bets cold before the flop. However, a reraise can be a potent weapon.

[OffTilt]

The preflop call all depends on the game, if it's a game where guys are raising trash then a re-raise might be in order, if it screams AK/AQ then get the heck out! KQ, while good looking on the surface, is an oft dominated hand. Once you have top pair/good kicker though, you have to raise on the flop and cut down the odds for the possible flush draw at the very least.

OffTilt

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[Hawkeye27]

Calling 2 cold preflop is loose-passive, not weak-tight. Never is a very strong word in hold-em, but never, ever, ever call 2 cold w/ KQo. Raise or fold, period. On the flop you have a perfect oppurtunity to raise and protect your hand, thin the field ,and make the draws pay.

Whenever you even consider calling, think to yourself "how would raising benefit me in this situation?". Once you realize all the wonderful benefits raising gives you, you'll start playing better.