drawing into a two-flush w/ over-cards

[Slowplay]

typical 9/18 b&m...ep brings it in...two mp, button and sb cldcall...i call the bb with KhQh

flop: JcTc6d

ep bets...both mps fold...button calls...sb raises...i fold (apprehensively; considered raising)...ep makes it three...button folds...sb calls...

turn: 7d

ep bets, sb calls...

river: 9c

ep bets, sb calls...

ep: AcKc
sp: 66

in this hand i make the correct play in not drawing dead against the two-flush (the river would have been really tough to digest) but this flop textures pop up all the time and while i'll almost never draw to a nut gutshot into a two-flush when it's an open draw with two over-cards is a tough lay-down...but two bets with the initial raiser behind me helped a bit...what are some your circumstantial considerations with similar drawing hands?

thanks,
-sp

[elysium]

hi slow
my gosh, what a terrible lay-down. you would have to know that you were against both a set and flush draw to make laying it down between the two raisers correct, and even then, you would almost always stay to the turn. you have over-cards too here slow. pretty awful.

[Slowplay]

hey e...yeah, you're right...that's why i posted the hand...it was an apprehensive fold (i did consider raising here) but the check/raise by sb made me hesitate, putting him on at least two pair...also ep, solid player, hadn't really open-raised early all session with anything less than AQs and had not bet the flop with just over-cards all session, so i put him on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AKs, AQs, KQs so my overcards were both tainted and out-kicked...so i am thinking i have three 9s (fourth the flush card) and if the A comes on the turn i may being splitting the nut straight and setting myself up for his redraw to a boat on the river...so i suppose i am thinking i have a clean three-outer to the nut, four outs to a possible tie and an expensive redraw it it hits...

...not the best lay-down in the world, i admit, but how do you usually handle these flop textures when your overcards complement a board that's also two-flushed? a gutshot draw and i lay it down 99 times out of a 100...

[elysium]

hi slow
you can't bet a gut-shot in this spot. for the gut-shot you need position, at least 5 opponents on the flop, pre-flop raise, gut to the nuts, and if the board is two toned, you want even better pot odds. usually, you will have correct odds with a two tone on as long as 5 opponents have called a pre-flop raise. all of these factors are important, but the most important is having your call close the action. when your ins. str. draw is mid range, you don't need the over-card but you do need that over-card if your ins. str. draw reaches into broadway. also, regaurding that mid range ins. str. draw to say a ten high or nine high straight, if the pot is large, and if you follow these guidelines it will be, if the bet comes from your immediate right, and the opponents on your left are solid to weak tight, not calling station types or loose raisers, then raise that opponent on your right with your ins. str. draw provided.....oh chip, i forgot......eh i forgot. oh, provided the table is on a level keel. if, for example, oh slow, a thousand things can happen set off a table. so if someone hits the big thousand to one jackpot on a nearby slot machine, that's good for them but it's not good for your raise. if the table's environmental bells are ringing, call, don't raise. so the table itself, yes the table has to be on level keel. now whether you say the table itself is solid or weak tight, that's up to you. but when the table is on a rush; and yes, an active slot machine can put the table on a rush; you call. so the table.....level keel. important. you got all that? now you can raise. do you have all that and an over-card complimenting your higher str. draw that touches broadway.....a Q high ins.str. draw for example, with no card on board higher than a J? then raise if you have everything listed including the right type of opponents on your left. and slow, you must know all of these conditions by rote. and you must be able to quickly assess the situation and either fold, call or raise.

study this slow because you will see what folly it is to even mention considering what if concerning an ins. str. draw in this post. you're so far from being able to play an ins. str. draw here that you might as well have mentioned what if regaurding quads or nut boat. an ins. str. draw has no business being mentioned in this post. it's as irrelevant as quads. but i know, there is something about your hand that looks ins. str. drawish, but you're far, far away from even considering it.

[Slowplay]

wow...that's quite a bit to digest...but thanks for the response...i am bit confused, however, because i did say that i lay down a gutshot 99 times out of 100, so that one time must be what you're referring to here...on this particular hand it was actually an open str. draw that i folded (reasons provided)...perhaps my question was a touch unclear, because i was asking how to handle the 8-outer with one out tainted by the flush and the over-cards being outkicked...sorry my fault...but thanks again...i'm sure that i'll be calling upon you again for help as i've decided to dedicate the next few months focussing on these drawing situations to stop some leaks...i just jumped up to the 9/18 game recently so these are moves that i really didn't need at 6/12...

i appreciate the feedback,
sp