JTs utg.

[Huh]

Your thoughts? I saw a huge debate about this a couple of weeks ago between two players who I have much respect for. I would consider both on the tight-ish side. One contends, that you need to play this situation carefully, folding many times, the other contends that this is always playable, regardless of the game texture. I lean toward the later(but also believe that JTo is the most over-rated hand in all of poker, and muck it pre-flop UTG in all games).

-Huh

[Stork]

I'd only play that in a loose/passive game and just call with it or maybe in a tight/passive game I'd open raise with it about 10% of the time /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Josh W]

Limp or muck. In a passive preflop game, I'd limp (regardless of how tight the game is...almost). In a more aggressive game, I'd muck.

I used to always play it. Then I took my first stab at a bellagio 30-60 game two years ago. I limped in early position in a pretty lousy game, and got raised in late position. I was heads up preflop, out of position, and in a small pot where drawing was only justifiable because I put in two bets preflop. I made a self vow right then to be more careful with it.

Josh

[mike l.]

i learned about two years ago on this forum to never play JTs utg. i of course disobey all the time, but it was an important lesson for me, and one i didnt take too well at first.

[JimRivett]

When I see someone playing (raising or limping) with JT utg, I know I'm in a good game.

Jim

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
When I see someone playing (raising or limping) with JT utg, I know I'm in a good game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, I limp UTG w/ JTs in pretty much every game I play.....

[Mikey]

I once raised UTG with JTs in the loosest game.
Everyone folded.

I got a few smiles from the table since they thought I raised with a premium hand.

If I were to play JTs UTG I would most likely bring it in for a raise of course this would depend on the game conditions.

[anatta]

I used to always play JTs UTG. Then I never played it. Now I limp in with it if the game is good and loose, not too aggressive. I have stopped being so rigid with my preflop play since Dynasty's small pocket pair, AXs post a while back. Roy Cooke has a lot of articles on preflop play where he really emphasizes the "it depends" nature of it all, the game conditions (pre and post flop), your particular opponent(s), your state of mind, etc. In some games, its suicide to play JTs UTG (or 33 or A4s, etc), in other games these hands are very profitable.

[johnd]

I raise it under the gun about 20% of the time in loose 5-10 Internet games I play in and limp in the rest. One reason is that many of the regulars keep records (not to mention programs that do it for them) and I feel it ads deception to my play. Also many times see 5 cold callers and the hand works well in multi way pots. The biggest problem so far is the games are so loose that some players will cold call Axs and Kxs so some times if u hit the flush u end up paying them off. I have not gathered enough data from my own records to be sure that hand shows profit in that position.

When I play 10-20 or 15-30 I happily muck it unless game conditions are optimal, but thats only happened once.

I have only been playing for about a two years so I welcome any advice to the contrary.

[elysium]

hi huh
if the game is passive and you are winning and in control of the table, and more accurately, if the game is passive because you are in control, then the ev is nearly equal to mucking. if the game isn't passive; if it's loose aggressive for example, then you should muck.

can you ever enter in with a raise in a full game? sure, like about 1/3 of the time that you come in with it in a passive game.

[Joshua]

Josh W, do you reason the same way about QJs?

Best Regards
Joshua

[iblucky4u2]

I sit down in a very loose 10-20 with 10 players. After 2 rounds of folding every piece of sh*t dealt me, I picked up JTs UTG+2. UTG and UTG+1 limp, so do I - anyone raise here? 5 more callers and the BB raises. (I had noticed that the only raises came from solid hands) UTG & +1 call. I think of folding but play because I haven't played a hand.
Anyone fold here?
All call - 18 SBs to the flop of AAT. BB bets out. Folded to me. Any callers here? There were 2 callers - not me. Turn was another A. Button called turn bet and the river. BB turned over AQs.

[Ian M.]

This is the way that I play it.

[Rushmore]

I think of folding but play because I haven't played a hand.

You're saying that essentially the entire table called a bet, it was raised, and you're thinking of folding JTs from utg+2?

If that's what you're saying, I want to ask you this: You're aware, of course, that a major reason that E/MP calling standards are much higher than M/LP calling standards is because of the likelihood of needing to call a raise behind you.

If you know this, and you're calling from EP with JTs, and there are this many callers, don't you WANT to put in the small bet for the upwards of 40-1 implied odds?

I'm happy someone raised behind me here. I love my hand, particularly if (results-orientedly-speaking) the best hand in the field is AQ.

P.S. Don't play a hand simply because you haven't played a hand yet. This cannot be a good rationale.

[J.A.Sucker]

I also can't think of a game where I don't play JTs UTG. In most games I'm limping, in others I'm raising. Mucking just ain't happenin'. Then again, when I walk into the local card shack, people yell out "ACK-SHAWN!!!" as they're trying to move me up the list. I really am Just Another Sucker.

[iblucky4u2]

I did call - It was obvious - but was comenting on the way our inner dialogue can play games with us. Clearly, this is the type of hand that will play best in multi way pots. Loved having 8 others in for 2 SBs. Too bad I couldn't hit the flop. Too bad I didn't hit any flops for the whole session. I did keep my discipline and walked away with after losing my buy in.

[Dynasty]

If I can't play JTs UTG, then I'm already on the table change list or getting ready to go home.

[andyfox]

More evidence, then, that the games in Vegas must be, contrary to popular opinion, easier than the games in L.A. There are very few games at Commerce at the 20-40 level and up, where J-Ts is +EV UTG.

[SossMan]

This is easy...ask the dealer if he's gonna flop Q K A rainbow and give the other players pocket A, pocket K, and pocket Q and don't pair the board. If he says yes, then I would play it...you may even want to raise it.
Otherwise, I would fold.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

In all seriousness, like Dynasty said, the game would have to be pretty rough for you not to be able to limp with TJs UTG. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dynasty]

Why? Do the players in California get dealt better cards when you get your JTs UTG?

[Softrock]

Andy - I just find that hard to believe. My sense is that the swings would be greater in California because of the wildness of the games but the few times I've played at Commerce I judged the nature of the games as suitable for playing JTs in early position.

[Rushmore]

I think of folding but play because I haven't played a hand.

I'm sorry. I took this literally.

Anyway, good to hear the discipline got the best of you. I am on general hiatus/sabattical now (read: discipline) because I suddenly cannot seem to do anything right.

The same applies to single sessions, obviously.

Better luck.