Lee Jones' book

What do you guys think of Lee Jones' book "Winning Low Limit Hold'Em", specifically his list of starting hands. Compared to other authors, his list is really tight! His philosophy seems to be, "If your opponents are loose (as is true in low limit games), wait until you have decent hands so that you can punish them when they limp in."


When you respond, please indicate whether you've read the book or not.

Hey Vlad...


I've read the book, and in my opinion it is the only non-2+2 poker book that I would recommend to a novice player. As far as hand selection goes, I feel that Skalnsky's hand groupings are superior and when I began playing I focused mainly on them. I don't agree with Jones's strategy of playing tighter in loose games, especially in terms of preflop hand selection...


Just my two cents!


-----Jeff in Mass

In my opinion, Lee Jones's book is the best one out there on low limit hold 'em. Most books focus on mid limit games, but he tackles the low limits, along with Lou Kreiger's "Hold 'em Excellence."


Re the question about him advocating playing too tight in loose games, I think perhaps the way he has some of the recommendations listed is a bit confusing. At the end of each chapter on position he lists stuff like "Four or fewer callers..." and lists hands to play, and then "More than four callers," and then another list. I think what he is saying makes sense, it is just that the format, in my opinion, is a little confusing.


The thing to remember is that there are 2 kinds of loose, and hand selection differs drastically between the two. Many people refer to a game as either "loose" or "tight", and they are missing half of the equation. Loose-passive and loose-aggressive are worlds apart (although both are loose), and tight-passive and tight-aggressive are similarly worlds apart, although both are tight. So whenever someone says a game is "loose" or "tight", that doesn't give you a very good picture. You must know whether it is passive or agressive as well, that is at least as important.


For instance, if Jones were to say to play tight in a loose passive game (most people see the flop, BUT usually without a raise), then he would be wrong. You should loosen up in such a game because it only costs you one bet to see the flop (typically). However, in a loose aggressive game, if Jones were to say to play tight, he would be absolutely right! Once again, it is still a loose game (most people see the flop), BUT in this case, there are usually raises before the flop. Now you MUST play tight preflop. In a loose passive game you don't play tight preflop. Both games are loose, but beyond that they are not similar at all.


Similarly, if you are in a tight passive game (people will fold for a raise and rarely reraise), you should raise more preflop. But if you are in a tight aggressive game where they will reraise you right back with good hands, you should probably look for another game.


I know this is similar to another one of my posts, but I just wanted to state that if you look closely at those confusing charts, Lee is stating this. I think it could be stated in a way a bit easier to understand, but I think it is in there. A couple of times (I believe at the end of the chapter on mid position play), he says, "if you are in a loose passive game, play any pair."


The important thing to remember is that when someone says they are in a loose game or a tight game, that is not enough to go on. What counts at least as much is the relative passiveness or agressiveness within the loose or tight confines, and only once you have all this combined information do you have a basis for determining how to play your starting hands. -Tim

I think it goes even further than that. You make a distinction between a loose-passive and loose-aggressive, which is obviously a good one to make, but Jones is trying to be more specific than just "if the game is loose-passive, play any pair". His hand selection lists are set up the way they are to make it clear that certain hands are playable from late position only if you have a bunch of limpers ahead of you. Loose-passive will usually mean that more than half the table sees the flop, with little preflop raising, but that doesn't mean that it is always correct to limp in with 22 three off the button.


Also, the book doesn't recommend hand selection that is that tight, it just trying to keep you away from hands that will force you to pay off a lot of bets (which is why he recommends super-tight play in early position), and he also doesn't think unsuited connectors are worth playing.

it would be pretty stupid to try and make and intelligent response had I not read the book.


Jones' book has some useful ideas, but for your primary source for strategy, I would look elsewhere. The thing I find most useful about this book for beginners is that it has advice on how to conduct yourself in a public cardroom, which is good advice. Some of his strategy ideas are valid, and if you read nothing but this book, you would still play better than the average clueless tourist, but I would read it with a grain of salt.


Dave in Cali

I don't agree with him either. The fact is, in a loose game you have more players putting more money in the pot with weak hands. Any hand that figures to be better than a typical weak hand will gain value.

You may be right but that doesnt mean you should automatically play any hand that is better than the typical weak hand. A multiway pot still hurts unsuited high cards even if the hands are weak, and while your hand might be better than the typical weak hand it may not be right to play against multiple weak hands. This is why the 2+2 advice to loosen up on multiway hands like suited connectors but to tighten upon high unsuited hands is correct. I would rather have 54s than KT even if the 54s might be weaker than the typical weak hand in many low limit games if the pots are multiway and the players are passive.


part of the reason, at least in my low limit holdem experience is that in these low limit loose games when small cards flop it is more likely that someone has a pair and normally you cannot play him off it, so they will call to the end,leaving you with only 6 outs and no chance of winning the pot on a semibluff. There are other reasons of course.


Jones advice is partly right since you should tighten up on certain hands in low limit games but loosen upon others. Just suggesting to players that they should play looser is not correct in my view.


Pat

I agree with Tim again. It may not be the best but one of the better ones for a beginner. In fact, it was my first primer in HE. Lou Krieger's is another one where I like his graphical representation of starting hands which I refined by incorporating details in the starting hands of HEFAP through color coding the background for the different hand groupings.


Again, I would like to emphasize my analogy with flying. Good Luck.

your post was more confusing then all of lee jones books put together.


jimmy

Jones' tight strategy in loose games is designed to reduce variance. Remember: quality cards are in someone's hand, if not yours.


Also, Jones points out that if you play a LITTLE tighter than the overall (loose) table, you can expect to win...but your bankroll will go through some big swings.

But proper strategy is to play a lot tighter when you are in loose games. You do this not to reduce variance but to maximaize expectation. That's because there is something known as the "Horse Race Concept" where you will discover that by playing a little tighter you will be making too many second best hands. (See Getting the Best of It by David Sklansky for more information.) Alos, in HPFAP-21 we explain how aggressive/passive impacts the number of hands that you should play, while loose/tight should impact the mix of hands that you play.

<blockquote>Also, Jones points out that if you play a LITTLE tighter than the overall (loose) table, you can expect to win</blockquote> Actually, Mason, Jones has removed this advice in the second edition of his book because he hasn't "seen any evidence of it" and now suggest only "when the table get crazy, play only your best cards".