3-Bet the Flop or Raise the Turn with an Overpair

[Barry]

I have been experimenting with this approach when I am bet into on the flop after I raise preflop. Just wondering what others think.

8/16 PP Not too tight, pretty aggressive, a fair amount of “moves”, together with some bad players. In other words a pretty decent game.

I’m 2 off the button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

EP open raises, folded to me, I 3-bet, folded to EP who calls.

Flop is T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP bets, normally I would raise here, but this time I just call

Turn is 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP bets, I raise, EP calls

River is 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Check, bet, call.

Hand history shows EP had 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Pros, cons, thoughts, comments?

[hockey1]

Homer just posted this exact question in the small stakes forum. There are some good responses there.

[Barry]

His is different. The flop is checked to him and he checks it through. I'm bet into on the flop.

[worm33]

A lot of times here I will raise especialy online. The main reason for the is a lot of times people will 3 bet you with the 88 hand putting you on ak or aq. Then you just smooth call the flop bet and raise the turn. You get 1 more big bet allthough sometimes when you raise the turn they fold their medium pp and you protect yourself from getting sucked out on in the river.

Get rakes back at pokerroom.com. E-mail me at slmpicken3@aol.com

[Ulysses]

Well, if you're allowed to 3-bet the flop after EP bets, I'd just go ahead and do that! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, with a relatively ragged board like this plus the flush draw on the flop, I'd just go ahead and raise the flop. Many hands will 3-bet, at which point I can choose to either 4-bet right there or wait 'til the turn.

I'm raising w/ a wide range of hands when bet into on this flop, so I'm definitely doing it with a big overpair.

[Softrock]

I agree with Ulysses but perhaps with some diferent thoughts. Decent opponents would recognize that my 3-bet could be AK as well as a pocket pair. Often if I did have AK I would choose to raise the flop hoping to see two more cards to hit my hand. I make that play enough that hopefully my flop raise will leave my opponent still pondering if I'm looking for a "free" card to my overcards or have a big pair. This will induce mistakes. I generally find that playing these sorts of hands in a straight forward manner works because many opponents presume you'll be tricky and won't believe you're play is straightforward.

[elysium]

hi barry
i like it. the bet into you instead of going for a check-raise is a little strange. you could call the turn if he were tight, but in this game the raise is fine. no problem here. usually though, in these aggressive games you want to go ahead and bet and raise at every opportunity, but the call on the flop in light of his bet into you is fine.

[Barry]

I know that I made an extra SB here. If I had raised the flop, the turn and river would have gone check, bet, call, unless he was on a draw. If he was on a draw he would have paid the max to do so.

Many typical opponents, as this fellow was, will bet into the preflop raiser with TP or a overpair to a ragged board and will go for a checkraise somewhere if they flop a monster. If the PFR calls, then a big A is the usual read and would plan to bet the turn unless a A, K or Q fell. If the PFR raises then a big pair is the read and they will likely, check/call the turn.

So his betting the flop tells me he has an OK, but not great hand, I'm ahead and he will continue to bet. From that prospective it seems obvious to me to raise the big street as there are only a few cards that could fall on the turn the would shut him down.

Am I missing something here?

[Ian M.]

I am a little bit torn on this issue, but I think if you raise the flop, often your opponent will not put you on a big hand, especially headsup. They may put you on overcards and reraise you. Then you can smooth call and raise the turn. Then when he/she sees your hand you will get more respect when you raise the flop with overcards or draws.

I usually play it this way, but I can definitely see benefits or raising the turn too.

[Rushmore]

Right. Against many experienced players, 3-betting the flop will be met with healthy skepticism (see: "raising for a free/cheap river"), and you will be reraised.

This move is almost invariably followed up with a turn bet, which you may then raise, netting more chips than the smooth call flop/raise the turn maneuver.

Of course, smooth calling the flop might well appear as if you are holding overcards, so you can generally expect to be bet into on the turn when a blank hits, achieving the desired effect when you raise.

Just not quite as profitably.

Obviously, the risk comes from the player shutting down when you raise the flop (call the flop raise/muck to turn bet), which will happen more and more often as you go up in limit.

However, smooth-calling the flop could be seen as weakness by the aggressive player, who will then fire another hopeless barrel at you on the turn.

Or it might raise a big red flag. I guess...ahem... it depends.