couple big blind hands.

[mike l.]

as promised here are couple hands from tonight. 8-16 good game, pertty loose and pretty riled up.

i have 7s2h in the bb. there are 4 limpers and sb calls, i check.

the flop is KsTs8s. checked around.

the turn is Qs. checked to button who bets. he's an okay player. sb folds, i call, others fold.

river is Th. i bet.

comments?

hand 2: i have Qd6h in the bb and get a free flop with 4 limpers again and sb calls.

the flop is QcJc4c. sb checks, what's my play? be specific/detailed. teach us oh master.

[Josh W]

If you think that you are leaking chips in your blinds, don't play the 72o postflop. Yeah, you got a flush. Woot. And, yeah, there's a decent chance you won the pot. Bigger woot. But if you won this pot by continuing a bad habit of pushing weak hands in the blinds too far, what did you really win?

With the second hand, check. Maybe check/fold. Maybe check/call. You gotta play poker. Would your opponent bet a draw on the flop and turn? If so, maybe just check/call down. Maybe check/fold, and wait for a better flop for your free play. Tough to say without knowing the players...

Josh

[Mikey]

hand #2.

Since I have poker etiquette I wouldn't recommend doing this, but if I had your hand, i would throw it into the muck out of turn without even checking.

Hand #1.
Well Mike, thats just how good your read is on the guy.

[mike l.]

"Bigger woot. But if you won this pot by continuing a bad habit of pushing weak hands in the blinds too far, what did you really win?"

i like the way you said this! wow that's tough stuff. i just read it like ten times over. yeah..hmm.. so should i check/fold the turn? do i gain more? that's what i want to know!

"With the second hand, check. Maybe check/fold. Maybe check/call. You gotta play poker."

no! as you just said above i gotta NOT play poker. i dont want to play poker. i want to just sit there and peddle the nuts and have pots pushed to me and go home with more money than i came in with. i dont want to play poker.

so i guess the strange thing about this is hand 1 made me want to play poker and hand 2 made me want to not play poker and for you it was the other way around. see? so what's up with that?

[Josh W]

If on hand #1, you don't win, you kick yourself and say 'why in the name of zeuses butthole did i lose 2 BB post flop w/ 72o when i made the 142nd nut hand in a tiny pot?"

On hand 2, its trickier, cuz you have some semblence of a hand, in a short handed pot. if 5 people see the flop, check/fold. if 2 people see the flop, push like its a grocery cart. yeah. and if somewhere in between see the flop, play poke----wait. never put in more than one bet on any street unless you improve. never overcall the river.

aw, dammit all. check/fold. maybe bet the flop and never ever ever put in another chip, and hope for a showdown. but it would be better to get married to rosie odonnell than that hand. really. maybe better to get married to charles manson. you get the idea. this post makes me feel like elysium.

heh. now it makes me feel like brad.

Josh

[mike l.]

"If on hand #1, you don't win, you kick yourself and say 'why in the name of zeuses butthole did i lose 2 BB post flop w/ 72o when i made the 142nd nut hand in a tiny pot?""

ah... i think i may have had my "i won" rose colored glasses on for this one because i felt pretty bad ass poker player style when i planned in my nead to bet the river no matter what fell because i knew i was going to call the river bet, but didnt want a worse hand to check behind me. i felt like an ace pro 3 big bets per hour kinda guy. he had 6s and he was really flustered. okay i suck, i see what youre saying. (so where should i have dropped the hand again?)

"On hand 2, its trickier, cuz you have some semblence of a hand, in a short handed pot. if 5 people see the flop"

i told you bro, 6 of us saw the flop.

"aw, dammit all. check/fold."

that's what i did! but you cant imagine how strange it was for me. i always bet that flop. i say to myself, "top pair! must protect it! bet!" and when i realised i was about to bet and then i thought of all of you out there rooting for me to step my game up a notch i checked. and it all clicked! top pair is not the end all be all, pushing every hand i happen to see a flop with is not where it's at! woohoo! praise jesus! so i checked and there was a bet and raise and cold call behind me and i mucked. wheeee.. felt good seriously.

"maybe better to get married to charles manson."

that's a great analogy really. getting interested in Q6o bb with sketchy board huge field small pot is like getting married to charles manson.

incidentally, i sell books online and i sold a copy of helter skelter the other day. i took a quick look at it and learned that originally he had drawn just an "X" on his forehead and then all his followers did too. then later he decided to change it to a swastika and they followed suit. what a crazy horrible evil person, but for some reason i could relate to the idea of him looking at himself in the mirror and seeing that x and then deciding what the heck i might as well go it the whole nine miles and then he makes into a swastika. i watched a kid on my right play a hand toady i could relate to in the same way. he had 9h6h (i caught a glance) and was against a good player on the button who raised him. the flop was all clubs Q9x. the flop was check-call. then 96 came to life with a checkraise on the turn followed by a bet and call of button's raise when button makes aces up on the river. it was with that river checkraise that 96 guy decided to take that X and make it into a swastika, and man the results were bloody. or something.

ok enough crack smoking. good night all

[elysium]

hi mike
you're not being raised off your blinds because you are over-playing them. see how the SB calls? the limps and SB calling? that's happening a lot to you in the BB.

you won hand 1 against two pair/ weak kicker.
you won hand 2 and i'll tell you how. you bet the flop and got heads up. the turn and river ragged, of course you bet, and your opponent showed down AJ with the Ac. he may not have called your river bet in hand 2.

they are in the weeds waiting for you mike. you are over-playing your blinds again. hand 2 was played perfectly by you. but hand 1 is why you are being targeted in the blind. if you have a hand 2 type hand, you're ok as long as you get heads up by the turn. do this.

tighten up in the BB. do not bet unless you get at least top pair strength type hand, and do not call without that type of hand either. you'll never do it but when you flop weak, fold. before folding though, hesitate by looking back at your cards. go to fold but then take one last look, then muck. do that on the flop only though. pre-flop, when you get raised off your BB occasionally, just casually muck.

you have to see that your opponents have picked up on your blind habits. as long as you realize that, you can keep them checking to you by appearing to want to play every blind that catches a little something or other on the flop. you have to see what part of your play is under attack and keep them attacking, only change your tactics in that area. if, for example, you were being raised off your blind, you would defend by coming in or reraising with slightly weaker hands. you would change your tactics. then you have to consider whether you want your opponents to perceive you as weak or strong when you defend. when defending your blind, you want your opponents to perceive you as being.....what? weak or strong? wrong.

weak is the correct answer. why? because when you muck when they are trying to keep you in, you want them to perceive you as mucking strong. so you hesitate or look back to keep them coming at you. you want to pretend that you're mucking something you perceive as being strong. now that's when they are trying to keep you in.

so, having your opponents deploy tactics against you is great provided that you identify those tactics and develop counter tactics. when they begin to adapt to your counter tactics, you once again change tactics. when they begin to run you off your blind, you'll defend with slightly weaker holdings.

ideally there mike, if you can see where this is leading, you want to anticipate beforehand what your opponents are going to do and deploy the counter tactic precisely as they deploy their new tactic; precisely at that same time. you'll get that icky counter-intuitive feeling but if you force yourself to follow your gut instinct that should be present in some form or other by now, your poker punches will begin to connect. and then you get the big mo, and roll and roll.

by now mike, your game should be so iron clad that the certainty of winning beyond any very short term fluctuations should be 100%. when a good 2+2 er vanishes from site, his game is usually at the next level of card room politics. he's trying to figure out the politics. he finds himself becoming more and more the type of individual he spent a lifetime trying not to become; a dues paying employee with regular hours and a boss. in the end, it's a bureaucracy. you find yourself wrangling with the other employees and fighting over customers. mike l. inc., it turns out, happens. it happens. just try hard not to be such a customer between now and then. anticipate. anticipate.

[mike l.]

"see how the SB calls? the limps and SB calling?"

the sb calls because he has two cards and he's halfway in and he has an IQ of about 90. that's why he calls. he doesnt call because i give too much action in the bb.

elysium, i know there are many reasons for posting, but for what it's worth i dont read your posts anymore. your long rambling, rarely great, usually horrid posts. just wanted to let you know so you dont waste the effort on me.

[worm33]

Hey mike, on the first hand I dont like your play much. You call with the 5th highest flush I believe with 2 or 3 players to act behind you on the turn. Now you bet the river? Is he going to call with the 6s or 5s? Probably...whats the chances he has it? not much. if you plan on calling the turn with 2 or 3 to act behind you, you should definitly check the river to try and induce a bluff. On the second hand, check and fold i dont think its close. small pot flop comes 2 straight and 3 flush and you have top pair no kicker. If your not beat now theres about a 80% chance the turn or river will beat you.

Get rakes back at pokerroom.com. E-mail me at slmpicken3@aol.com for details

[Riverman]

First hand- I love this play. He almost certianly has nothing and can't call you enough to make your bet -EV. Second hand- check and let the action develop. If the bet comes from a late position, check-raise to hopefully get it heads up. If it looks like the pot will be multiway, don't even bother at all. There are too many draws out, plus your are surely behind if another queen is out.

[Ed S.]

"as promised here are couple hands from tonight. 8-16 good game, pertty loose and pretty riled up."

What do you mean by riled up? If they are loosey goosey and taking hands far or too far then thats something to consider for BB hand #1.

"i have 7s2h in the bb. there are 4 limpers and sb calls, i check"

"the flop is KsTs8s. checked around."

"the turn is Qs. checked to button who bets. he's an okay player. sb folds, i call, others fold."

"river is Th. i bet."

"comments?"

It's a good bet if this person is likely to lay down second pair and is capable of doing so. If the game is loosey goosey and people throwing away bets carelessly than I don't think you will be able to buy the pot here, but it can be good advertisement if they do call. So there are alot of considerations to look at when making that play or non-play.

"hand 2: i have Qd6h in the bb and get a free flop with 4 limpers again and sb calls."

"the flop is QcJc4c. sb checks, what's my play? be specific/detailed. teach us oh master."

With the table like it is I say that a bet is not going to get the flush out and you could be traping yourself, plus I don't think anyone with 4-to-the Flush is going anywhere either. You have a weak Queen and I would go for a check and see what the turn brings you. If button or late position bets you can go for the check raise if you like. Club comes on turn or river I say you have a safe fold but that would depend on how the play develops throught the hand. To make any sort of bet or check-raise at this pot or even fold you must be spot on to how the opponents in the hand at this juncture is playing or capable of playing and then go from there.


Ed S.

[mike l.]

"It's a good bet if this person is likely to lay down second pair and is capable of doing so."

i made a flush on the turn. you missed it i guess.

[Ed S.]

Opps!! Yeah I did miss that.

I think you made a decent bet on the river. If you get raised you can fold.


Ed S.

[Ulysses]

Did you consider folding these two hands pre-flop?

[brad]

i' have 7s2h in the bb. there are 4 limpers and sb calls, i check.
'

all this talk about crazy muck for no bet, and you cant even do it with the anti nuts just so you can post about it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

come on. i think i speak for everyone when i say that we expected more /images/graemlins/smile.gif

heh

[felson]

Is this a joke?

[Diplomat]

It's a reference to a string from a couple days ago, started by Mike. Go check it out.

-Diplomat

[mikelow]

Hand one--I like your bet. Full house very unlikely and you
will gain a bet if your opponent doesn't have a spade and calls anyway.

Hand two--check and fold. No position, no kicker, no club.

[JimmyV]

Sorry Mike -- your posts are great but elysium is just a genius. No two ways about it.

Bet the flop in hand two and fold to a raise unless almost everyone stays in.

Great play in hand one.

[JimmyV]

Oops, I just noticed that in hand two the flop is monotone. Check and fold.

[ragedyandy]

Hand1: I fold on turn. There are 4 big bets in the pot after button bets with all players who saw the flop still left to act. The 9, J or A of spades beats you. Let the button have one, it's gotto be his turn sometime ... might as well be now while you have a holding that could easily be second best. And he's probably not going to call if he doesn't have a hand that beats you. He should know what you have after checking the flop and calling the turn ... why wouldn't you raise the turn with a strong spade?

Hand2: Check and see what develops. If it's bet and raised back to you, fold. If it's checked around, bet the turn. If it's bet and there are two or more callers when it gets back to you, fold ... otherwise make a judgement call.

Am I just advocating ABC poker here? I like what Tommy Angelo said one time - "I'd rather be weak-tight then strong-broke". I think weak-tight play is often times appropriate - or may be I'll just look for a better table those times when weak-tight play appears best.