15-30 Hand: Typical Situation, Do you play it differently?

[Jeffage]

Playing in a 15-30 game on Party. I have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the SB. Folded to a player two off the button who open raises. Cutoff and button fold, I threebet, BB folds and he calls. Head up to a flop of Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet, he calls. Turn is the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I bet, he calls. The river is the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You know nothing about this opponent. Do you check-fold, check-call, or bet and fold to a raise. Comments about other streets also appreciated.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Vehn]

Most of the time the only reason he's still there is because he hopes you have ace king, and he hopes you call his river bet with it because he can beat it.

[Dynasty]

If you are typically in this spot on the river, you need to bet some of the time and check some of the time.

[Jeffage]

If you check, is it with the intention of calling a bet or folding to one? Also...when you say, if you find yourself in this situation a lot...do you mean that you shouldn't routinely bet the flop and turn in this type of spot? Or do you mean in a particular session? I guess I could check or bet 50/50 but would like your thoughts on these questions. I appreciate the response.

Jeff

[stripsqueez]

i play in these schools - normally 6 max

i like check and call, but there are several potentially "correct" answers depending on your opponent, your image etc

i would play this hand the same way you did to the turn against virtually all opponents in these schools - betting the turn is a commitment i wouldnt always make, particularly against a good player who i knew might fold the flop with a hand i beat in which case i may check/fold the turn - against such a player i may check the flop - one argument for slowing down on this hand is that there is no sensible draw that your opponent might be playing for - it would be super soft to check/fold the river having bet the turn - not the image you want

[Jeffage]

If you check the river, you are folding then? The thing is in these games someone may choose call down with any ace like AJ here (though I don't know this particular opponent). If I check and induce a bet, I probably have to call (unless I have specific player knowledge). It just seems like an expensive way to play this type of hand so I thought I'd see what others think. Just some thoughts, I know this is somewhat debateable.

Jeff

[ALL1N]

Hi Jeff

Check and fold is best. Here's why:

With no knowledge of the player, the range of hands he could hold should be AK, AQ, JJ, TT, 99, & 88. You're losing to all but AK, and a player who calls on that flop and turn with AK is almost certainly calling the river too, so a bet achieves nothing.

If he's loose and he's in there with worse than AK:

He raised preflop, yet he smoothed on the flop and turn. I think you can rule out a river bluff from a loose-aggressive; it would seem obvious that you have at worst AK, which most players would call with in your position.

I think you're almost certainly not winning, and if he's in there with Ax or some trash, I can't see him bluffing at the end, so you'd get a free showdown in that case.

ALL1N

PS: The bet and fold to a raise is better than the check-call here, as you will get calls from worse hands than will bet.

[risen]

Betting the river is your only chance of actually winning the hand since you aren't going to win the showdown with Ace high very often. He's shown you on the flop and turn that he's not going to pop you if you bet the river, and if you're going to check with the intention of a crying call, why not bet and perhaps induce a bad fold. Even if you bet and lose you will gain information on your opponent, and get some good advertising in to the table on what you'll 3 bet with preflop, and that you're aggressive even when you miss.

[elysium]

hi jeff
on the river, usually check-call with AK. you played it fine and i'm sure you did check call and likely won.

about the only thing you could have done differently would have been to check-call the flop and check-raise the turn. you get a little more ev when you're behind, but it works out to about the same when it goes to the river.

you need to see the clear check-call on the river here jeff. that's about the only concern here. you've got to check-call the river and know that you must check-call. you've got to know that jeff.

[Vehn]

*shrug* What are ya gonna do? I will say this, though, when I think about situations like this and when I think about how often I check and call the river here getting around 7:1 and needing to win around 14% of the time to break even on my call, I don't think that lifetime at mid limits for me personally I have made money on my calling frequency here.

I'm sure this will be very useful and just the answer you were looking for.

[Ed S.]

Jeffage,

I find that players online like to take hands farther than sometimes what you would find in a B&M game. I guess It just seems more because we are playing more hands per hour online, but anyways it's what I have noticed. With that said I think you played the hand well so far, and since you know nothing about your opponent I say you should bet it here. It can do alot of things for your table image. It may show people that you take A-K too far and over play it(Which is not true in your case, you were just gathering information and varying your play). Your raising standards from the blinds could be justified any pair to A-K suited from what they see at showdwon from you(Thats what the opponents will be thinking when you next raise from the blinds, which will be also false, since you were merely trying to close the feild and get it heads up). You also can gain information on what type of hand this player open raises with and how they play it. You can gain alot of information here by betting and losing or check and calling. Wich ever way you want to approach the situation but I stay until the end and make the play that would best suit you for that table.


Ed S.

[turnipmonster]

great post! I would check-fold here because he's not likely to be calling with a draw in this spot, and if he is then, gawd love him, you'll get your money back soon enough.

--turnipmonster

[BookOfIcculus]

In my opinion people bluff with AK way to much. And with nothing but A high you are just bluffing. I don't bet the turn or river and probably not the flop, unless I think I can take the pot on an AK bluff. With that much money in the pot allready due to the 3 bet on flop you ain't getting pot on a bluff unless you would have won without the bets. I would only try betting my AK all the way only very rarely and only when you can get some dirrect gain even if you lose.

[Tyler Durden]

Well the flop is draw-free so I'd put him on at least a pair. I don't think you should check and fold. Check and call is my play.

[J.R.]

Why would you check-call when you put your opponent on a better hand?

[Jeffage]

I do appreciate the response, but honestly if you are going to check the flop here head up after 3-betting out of the blinds you will truly get run over in an average mid limit game. While the turn and river may be debateable, I don't think the flop is at all. Being tight is good, being weak tight is not...it can be a fuzzy line (believe me I have treaded on both sides). JMHO.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

You would check the flop here? I find that hard to believe and pretty much incorrect. I think you must bet the flop here...you may win it right there if his openraise was with a weak hand and if not you likely have 6 overcard outs and any spade gives you additional river outs. Going into check-call mode from the flop seems to be suicide in this position but I am open to other opinions.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

"I find that players online like to take hands farther than sometimes what you would find in a B&M game."

I agree with this. I think people tend to push small edges much more online, but in the quest for that thin plus EV, sometimes things get blurry. People are much more aggressive online...where I can see getting away from this hand against many B&M opponents, many people online will not give up a naked ace no matter what in a heads up pot.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

"About the only thing you could have done differently would have been to check-call the flop and check-raise the turn. you get a little more ev when you're behind, but it works out to about the same when it goes to the river."

How is it more EV to checkraise the turn if I'm behind. If I checkraise the turn and am called can I really put in more money with ace high? And If I check, I will definitely face a bet on the river after checkraising and checking. I think the likely consequence of a turn check would be something like 33 checking behind than paying off a river bet that I will feel obligated to make (rightly or wrongly...I could check, but I guess I'd have to call). I don't know, just some ideas.

Thanks Ely,

Jeff

[skp]

Checkcall unless you know your opponent well.

There are a couple of players that I play against who will call on the turn with, say a pocket pair, and base thir river play on mine. That is, they know that I know that it is generally pointless to bet AK at the end with no pair because I would be thinking "no better hand will fold and no worse hand will call". So, if I check, they will value bet their pair of 8's or whatever figuring that I probably have Ak. If I bet, they will fold figuring that I must have a pocket pair (which could include JJ,TT,99 despite the Queen on board) or a top pair of Queens. Against these guys, I would bet my AK to try and get them to fold a better hand.

And then of course there are some guys who you can just safely checkfold against.

Bottom line: If you don't know your opponent from Adam, you should checkcall. But be alive to other options once you gain some understanding of how your opponent in question thinks.

[elysium]

hi jeff
i'll agree that on the flop, you can consider laying it down to a weak tight who bets when you check. but after the flop, the pot is big enough to take a stab at it. you need the right opponent of course, and your image has to be right; for example if you just showed down a turn semi-bluff, you probably shouldn't check-raise.

what i want you to keep in mind is that this can be a situation where check-raising the turn will give you the best opportunity to win and may allow you a free river show-down.

one thing i really don't like here is the Q on board. that hurts you. folding on the flop isn't a whole lot worse than going for it. also, if your opponent is passive, check-raising is totally wrong. and you do need something more than what is posted to continue past the flop. it's not a good situation here. but you do have the option to check-raise and i want you to consider that before betting out on the flop. once you bet out, well, you now are pretty much committed to continuing to bet out like you did. so, if the conditions and opponent are right, and you think there is some reasonable chance of getting the fold or at worst, a free show-down, then don't ruin the check-raise by betting out on the flop. check-call the flop and then check-raise the turn. you want to represent AQ or QQ and that's how to do it under the right conditions. i'll assume that you considered that and decided against it. that's fine.

as far as the river check-call, that's pretty rudimentary. you can bet but there aren't many weak tights on the river. if he's a good solid, betting out has merits. if you think you can get the fold, go for it. but your ev there is about equal to showing it down for free or calling. now AQ you almost always must bet if he's good solid or of course weak tight. against a tricky same thing. your AK is stronger than you think and can stand the weight of a free show-down or call on the river. you don't have to bet it heads up.

[BookOfIcculus]

Yes I would check the flop at times it can give many players at high to mid the impression that I am slow playing a monster. On the other hand betting the flop with AK is not a bad idea either and I think 90-95% of the time is a correct play. As i was reading this post I got AKo. EP limped. I raised. sb folded and bb Called, then limper re-raised I call the 3-bet, then bb capped. Al CaPacino!! I yell. Flop 34J rainbow. Ep checks I bet(which was I mistake IMHO) Everyone calls. Turn came Q Beting went the same way. River was a 3. Ep checks I check BB bets. Both call. BB wins with TT EP had AK. I played this hand wrong at every street. I should have laid it down when i knew I was beat.

Jeff,

My choice is to bet the river but fold to a raise, because:

You 3-bet his PF raise and just called you on the flop and on the turn. If he has you beat with, say, AA, KK or QQ, you would have been raised either on the flop or on the turn - probably more on the turn as he could have extracted as much from you at this point. As somebody pointed out, he could be staying only 'cause he's hoping you have AK. By continui your aggression with betting out on the river, you're stating that you could beat top pair. Maybe a good time for a bluff as he may chicken out with AQ or an underpair. With your show of strength, I doubt if he would raise you on the river even with AQ. By checking, your basically admitting you have AK and would likely bet if he has any made hand at all.

Well, y'know I don't play the internet nor the this level but that's my take. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tyler Durden]

No I guess I wasn't clear. I would definitely bet the flop. And the turn. No doubt. I meant check and call would be my preferred play on the river. definitely not on the flop.

However, it seems that if he got any piece of the flop he'll call a river bet with it but not raise you for fear you have a hand. So I don't think it matters very much in the long run if you check/call or bet the river.

[Tyler Durden]

I don't know Dynasty---oops, I mean J.R.

[ALL1N]

Why do you believe the check-call to be best elysium?

What worse hand can your opponent have that he will bet?

[Jeffage]

Wow, this thread got so involved I forgot to post the results. Interesting thoughts from everyone and I appreciate the responses. I chose to check the river. He bet, and I called. He showed AQo so he basically milked me for the max. I just wanted to see the thought processes of others...I think check-folding is a bad idea unless you are VERY sure of your opponent. But I think betting may have been better on the end in that I could get called by a worse ace...though checking could get me a free showdown against a weak pair that won't fold to my bet. Anyway, thx for the responses and more always welcome.

Jeff

[Vehn]

I fail to see why frequently check folding on the river is that bad. I would do it in my live game very often.

[cero_z]

Hi Jeff,
Nearly anywhere else, you should check-fold. At Party, it's probably a toss-up between check-calling and check-folding, against the typical Party opponent. But I try to avoid this situation by check-raising the turn for value more often at Party than I normally would (with a strong hand, not an unimproved AK). I do this to slow down the over-aggressive play there (or in any very loose game), so I can see players check behind me on the turn when I'm in your spot with AK, AQ, 99 with one overcard on board, etc. Since you bet the turn, the pot's probably big enough to check-call (as I said), but you can't like it since there are no legit draws out there.

[Jeffage]

Well maybe very bad was a poor choice of words. It's interesting because I think I could make the fold live because (in general), if I'm called on the turn in a live mid limit game at the Taj, I'm beat. But online...there just seems to be more gamesmanship and naked aggression on the later streets and it is somewhat more likey that I could have the best hand. Hard to explain really, but there is a difference between online and live play in this spot. IMO.


Jeff

[Paluka]

There is no draw on the flop and you 3 bet your opponent preflop. Very unlikely he is calling you down with AJ. I think you should check and fold the river. He won't bluff the river very often because your check looks like you have a hand like TT and you are checking with the intention of calling. I've played a few hundred hours of the Party 15/30s this year, and this just isn't a spot where you want to call the typical Party player.

[RollaJ]

In many situations I think a bet is best, or a check-call, but with a flop like that, he cant be calling on a draw, and once he calls the turn he will most likely call the river as he has figured his hand has a good enough chance of winning