Why are they telling me my hand is good here?

[gonores]

Party 5/10, quite loose for the limit

I am in the SB with QhQd

B4, B2 and B1 (passive) limp, Button raises (decent player), I 3-bet, BB and B4 fold, B2 and B1 cold-call, Button caps, all call. 4 to the flop

Flop: Kd Jc 4h

I bet, B2 folds, B1 calls, B0 calls

What do you put the button on here? It sure feels like he is slow-playing a set of Kings or Jacks or pocket aces, but I guess TT, QQ, AQs, and AJs are all possibilites. I highly doubted he could be holding AK while I was playing the hand, but I guess it could be there too.

Turn: 7h

I bet again (is this stupid?), both call again.

Jeez...can they both be on draws? Now I start to worry about B1...a draw or a King are both likely. Button remains a mystery...call, call, call isn't his style.

River: 8h

I check, because I don't think worse hands will call. B1 bets, and B0 calls. Now what? I'd call one player for sure, but two?



Results to follow, thanks in advance for the comments.

Doug

[Mike Gallo]

I wouldnt fear the button. I would fear the person who bet into you on the river. That player could have Kx hearts and flopped top pair crumby kicker, and by the river his hand became the second nut flush.

The buttons river action would puzzle me. He capped preflop then called the entire way. Unless he fears a runner runner flush or straight from the initial bettor why did he only call in that spot. Right there I would consider folding.

Looking back, what could the button cap with that you can beat? Would he cap with 10's or AJ suited perhaps hearts?

Good post, I would call and expect to look at a runner runner hand and a slow play gone bad.

~MG~

[Louie Landale]

Lets count the reasonable 4-betting hands for the "decent" button who surely knows the SB has a good hand. AA, KK, QQ, AK. Maybe JJ, AQs, TT. Now lets count the ones that cannot beat QQ when the flop is KJx. Maybe AQs and TT.

There are FEW worse flops than that in your situation; about on par with AKx.

You were already in some trouble before the flop (vis-a-vis the decent 4-bettor) and got a DISASTER for a flop. Unless you think they WILL check the turn unless you are beat, your hand isn't worth a call on the flop. Read that sentence again. It means since you cannot call a turn bet then you cannot call a flop bet if they are going to bet the few hands you CAN beat anyway. You seemed to have missed all the big red flags on this one.

Your hand is barely worth showing down if button is a maniac.

- Louie

PS. The decent button is worried that YOU flopped a set, since you seemed to be charging through all the red flag that HE sees. That's why he doesn't put in a bet until its checked to him on the river.

[gonores]

I thought, thought, and thought about this river. Eventually I timed out, as I could not bring myself to pull the trigger on either course of action. B1 turned over QJo and B0 mucked pocket 9s. I folded the winner.

After the hand, I felt sick about the fold, but the more and more I thought about it, the more and more I assured myself it wasn't a terrible fold...I probably somewhere between 95-98% sure I was beat with a bet and a call, given my reads on my opponents.

That being said...I still can't figure out whether or not I think my flop and turn play were wrong or just ok.

My flop bet seems ok. I gotta give this guy a chance to fold. I agree with Louie though...this is not a good flop for me, and I'm usually not in good shape against a cap.

The turn bet seems bad to me. This was sort of a thoughtless bet by me. The button call after the cap just screams slow-play. I could have easily folded to a raise from either player, and at the time, I was just praying that they were both on draws.

I think it will be pretty unanimous that the big mistake I made on this hand happened before the hand even started. My reads on both opponents were terrible. I can't think of a time when Cap, call, call, call is the proper play for a decent player, and a passive player will rarely bet the river with 2nd pair. As I reviewed the session at the end of the night, I realized that the button had some light re-raising standards preflop, and wasn't all that good...just tight. B1 was also more aggressive than I gave him credit for. Furthermore, these reads should have been fairly evident to me well in advance of this hand. You would think, as I have only been playing 5/10 for a week, that I would be very attentive and focused...there's a lot more money on the table than normal.


The big thank you:

A year ago yesterday I broke my leg, condemning me to my apartment. A year ago today I chose poker to fill the void my athletics could no longer fill, and I found this site, which truly has been by far the biggest learning tool in my poker career....and it's not even close. Thanks mostly to you guys, since I started on playing for real money on Jan. 1, 2003, poker has:
- Paid senior-year tuition
- Covered rent until school is over
- built my BR from $1/$2 to $10/20
...and that's just the financial rewards (I won't report the hard #s...hard $ amounts never seem to go over well on this board). As my poker career has advanced, I've also noticed a change for the better in my thought processes outside of the poker tables. I will always defend poker as one of the best thought exercises for the analytical mind.

Special thanks to Louie Landale, Clarkmeister, Dynasty, majorkong, and Bob T. I'm not saying that these guys are nny more right than any other posters, I'm saying that what these guys post resonate with me on a consistent basis. I have spent an entire evening on each of you, reading as many posts of yours that I can. *Note to the newbies....take a night off and read all of Louie Landale's posts. I guarantee it will be worth it.

In retrospect, I should have made this a seperate post. Oh well...I'm busy for the rest of the day, I wouldn't be able to make another post and I wanted to get this in on the anniversary day.

Thanks to all.

Doug