Tourney hand for your enjoyment

[JDErickson]

Stars NL Tourney. 1155 combatants to start, 413 remaining. Blinds 75/150. Average stack 4195.

I’m dealt 4s4h in mid position. Folded to me (T3600) I call, folded to BB (T5225) who raises to 600, I call

Flop: Qc4c5c

BB bets 450, I push all in. BB calls

Turn Ac

River: 6h

Please critique this hand and I will post results later.


Thanx
Jim

[Rickfish]

I would not have called the raise BTF. But having seen the flop I would play the same as you. Whether you should limp in with 44 is debatable. I know about the implied odds but I have found that hitting the flop can mean losing all your chips. Last time I called a small raise with 77 I hit trips only to find that the raiser had hit trip Qs. I used to pass the small pairs but started to search for these implied odds and am finding that set over set happens often enough to take away a chunk of your odds.

[youtalkfunny]

...when he says that set-over-set happens often enough to make small pairs unplayable.

(Unless he's talking about Party or Paradise, but if I mention that, I'll be called a paranoid rabble-rouser. /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

If I flop a set, and the only thing scary about the board is an overcard or two, I'm just going to have to go broke.

Back to the hand in question, the suited flop makes this hand a little bit trickier to play. I think I call the flop. If the turn is NOT a club, THEN I push in.

Note that I would've played it differently, but that doesn't mean that I think you played it poorly by any means.

[boots]

i guess i'd answer this post with a question:

by moving all in on this scary flop, what do you hope to accomplish?

You will not get a big flush to fold. It is possible, although unlikely that the BB will fold a small flush in this heads up situation.

So, perhaps he will fold a bare small or medium /images/graemlins/club.gif, like the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif,8 /images/graemlins/club.gif,9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, and it is even possible he would fold the bare j /images/graemlins/club.gif or k /images/graemlins/club.gif

And what hand will call you here that will make you happy? You really do not want to be called when you move all in with this scary board - as you have to figure you are in trouble when he calls.

My point is that in all likelihood, there is no way you are going to get action from a hand worse than yours... Is a big Queen going to call here? I doubt it, but that depends on your read of your opponent.

So, by smooth calling the flop, you expose yourself to the risk of the ugly 4th club which eventually fell on the turn anyway, but you also give yourself a chance to get away from the hand, since in this hand, you would have had to fold to a decent bet on the turn.

If the big blind is the type of player who would play a weak bare /images/graemlins/club.gif here if you moved all in, then i think you made a mistake. If he is capable of folding this relatively weak draw, then your play is not terrible, but i still think calling the flop is better - you may be able to induce a bluff if the club doesn't fall (don't forget, the BB has shown the agression thus far - raising preflop)

If a non-club comes on the turn, and the BB moves all-in, you can call.
-jk

[Yeknom58]

Hey if in fact it was QQ over 77, that was me who gave you the knock.

With this logic I guess you NEVER EVER play 99 and below when you're not in a blind. That can't be right huh?

[JDErickson]

Thanx everyone for the responses. Before I tell you the ugly news I'll discuss my thoughts on the hand. See if these comments make any difference in how you would have played this.

Tourney was entering the important phase. I was below average in chips and felt I had to play a bit riskier in order to stay afloat so to speak. Normally I would have folded 44 to the bet BTF but decided to call and see what happened on the flop.

When the flop gave me the set of 4's I thought I was ahead but the 3 to the suit scared me. My thinking was that I had to choices, fold or go all in. If I fold I lose 600 chips on a very good hand that I felt was nuts at that point. If I push all in I may force the player to fold if he only has the flush draw (for instance AK with 1 club). I didn't want to give it a chance for the 4th club to fall on turn or river.

Opponent turned over KK(1 club) for the A high flush and I busted out.

My questions:

When is the time to start taking more risks in these tourneys? I feel you have to take the risks at some time in order to win.

When is it ok to play a 44 or other PP heads up? I know odds are basically a coin flip but when do you play the coin flip? In my limited experience if I continue to play tight I end up dying a low painful death.

Thanx
Jim

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If it was a ring game it was BARELY worth your pre-flop call, as you don't have enough of a stack to get the required implieds odds to make it worth calling with a small pair. Now you did before it was raised, but after the raise, you were skating on real thin ice by calling at all. Add in the undesireability of getting busted in tourneys and I wouldn't even have called the original 150. When the blinds get bigger in tourneys, I chunk the small pairs unless I'm open-raising in late position with them.

Of course once you are there, on the flop you immediately go all-in.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Set over set is so incredibly rare that I NEVER worry about it. It's happened to me approximately once every six to eight months or so, sometimes me on top, sometimes not, and I play a lot of poker. I consider all sets to be good unless I'm worrying about a str8 or flush. Once in a blue moon I'll get the butt end of set over set, and if they play it right, they will double up off me right there. But it's not something to be worried about. You must consider sets as winners, otherwise there is no point in trying to hit them.

Passing small pairs in tourneys is often correct when the blinds take up a significant % of your stack. You don't want to put a sizeable chunk of your stack in with a low % hand in a tourney, even if there are implied odds to cover it, because running out of chips is so undesireable. Most of the time you won't hit and will just lose the chips. Early in a tourney is the time to play small pairs.

Now in a ring game, any time implied odds justify it, I'm playing small pairs, because if I need to I can just buy some more chips. Implied odds are KING in ring games. They're important of course in tourneys too, but they are not the only thing to consider.

al