AKo four hearts on board

[mike l.]

8-16 9 handed good live game. i have AsKd in the bb. there are 4 limpers, sb completes, and i check. my table image is tight.

the flop is Kh9h4h. checked around.

the turn is Qh. checked to middle position player who is pretty loose, but thinking player. he bets, folded back to me and i checkraise. (there are two players in between us btw).

comments on that play?

[Jeff V]

That sounds like a good play to me. He probably would have semi-bluffed the flop w/ a big heart, and combined w/ a tight image you should be good. (or he flopped the nut flush) Out of curiosity- did you plan to check raise the flop if it was bet? Jeff

[Clarkmeister]

Nothing like checking the best hand preflop, checking it again on the flop, and finally raising when its no longer any good and the pot is small.

[mike l.]

"did you plan to check raise the flop if it was bet?"

bingo. smallish pot so i figured the best thing to do was try to narrow the field with a checkraise. figured it was worth the chance given small pot. surprised clark didnt catcht that.

[Clarkmeister]

Of course I caught it mike.

[Josh W]

Now I'm mad. That's like twice this month we've agreed completely. This is ludicrous.

Mike, when Plan A doesn't work, come up with a whole new Plan B, don't just try Plan A again.

You are risking two big bets to win a tiny pot, with others left to act. Or, what if they are calling with a set or KQ or something...are you gonna bluff the river again? Three bets to win a medium pot on a bluff?

If you flopped a set, and still had a chance to catch up to a made hand, that's one thing, but...

Josh

[bushky]

Mike,

I always thought AK was a drawing hand. If you get draw, why not bet it? Pre flop maybe you wouldn't to keep pot odds low for the limpers hoping for a draw, but post flop? With three hearts what were you thinking was going to happen if a heart fell? Or if a card paired? They have to stay with something before the flop right? Maybe their middle pair just got a second one? And you would never know it.

Maybe I don't have the experience y'all have, but I bet. If not pre flop, definitely post flop. If your image is tight, and they all fold pre flop 2 you, would that not be a good result? 5 small bets? With little risk? Or is the 30+ % chance worth going for an overpair?

Just my ideas, not trying to be harsh.

bushky

[mike l.]

so how would you have played the flop? and do you always raise AKo preflop in the bb against 5 players?

[mike l.]

because the field was big i was going for a checkraise on the flop to try and clear some players out.

[mikelow]

Flop bet might be better, but you get a chance of a semibluff raise. Good for image. Hope it worked in the "clueless" 8-16 game.

[mike l.]

it worked! he said "i have a heart and then flashed the 2h and mucked". it was all about my image i guess. playing no hands at all.

"Hope it worked in the "clueless" 8-16 game."

as for this, i hate the 8-16 down here most of the time. not very good, the 20 is oftentimes better, none of it compares to the soft great 15-30 games at hp, sigh..

[Tyler Durden]

Not betting the flop is a large mistake, and I think it's a larger mistake than not raising preflop.

I don't like to raise AKo from my BB against that many players.

[mike l.]

"Not betting the flop is a large mistake, and I think it's a larger mistake than not raising preflop."

i think a bunch of you are way off if you go around betting the flop here all the time with 6 small bets in the pot (5.5 after rake in this game). i do have a likely best hand but it's vulnerable to all sorts of cards coming off, namely another heart (and if someone does have a made flush i am drawing near dead, but that is besides the point, im not advocating just giving up here).

i think it's critical to try and increase my chances of winning this pot, and narrowing the 5 opponent field is a big part of it. i felt that going for a flop checkraise here was a no brainer because the game was reasonably aggressive. the last thing i wanted to see happen was bet the flop, get 3 callers, and then pray the turn card is a favorable one. i believe going for a checkraise here is the +EV play given the smallish pot and strong chance i can normally checkraise one of the 4 players behind me to act and eliminate people with medium size hearts, middle or bottom pairs, and any draw an average sucker may call just one bet with, but wont call two cold.

[Josh W]

mike -

I hope you don't view my post below as critical to your flop checkraise. I would have played it the same on the flop, and I raise preflop only a small portion of the time (depending 100% on WHO is limping).

I would have tried for a checkraise on the flop, too. It's the turn that left a bad taste in my mouth. I get the feeling that the decision to checkraise was made in too much haste, as if a checkraising seed had been planted, and you didn't wanna neglect it. Tiny pot, just let it go....


Josh

[elysium]

hi mike
you would never make that type of check-raise in this type game. the MP's will not let you get heads up and.....no.

by the way, you need to raise the pre-flop.

when the fourth heart hits the board, you might try that type of check-raise in a 3 way, but with this many in, you should usually give it up. the pot is not huge, take your pre-flop check and flop no bet, and run. the odds you'll be called to the river are way more than the pot odds you're getting. also, your hand can't improve.

i like the check-raise attempt on the flop. perfect; you're trying to stop the fourth heart, and if you take it down right then and there that's great. also, your hand has a slim chance to improve. furthermore, the turn may get checked around or more likely a few will call your turn bet. if the fourth heart doesn't hit on the river, a rare river check-raise is a possibility against the right opponent, although checking it is the best way to go. by the way one of the reasons you would bet out on the turn would be for the free show-down.

but when that fourth heart hits, you have to see the silver lining. you have only invested 1 small bet in this thing. you can exit looking like a champ.

you won. they folded to your check-raise. the odds of that happening were about 10-1 if not more. i don't know what you got back for taking the 10-1 here, but it wasn't no 10-1, i can tell you that.

when you have somehow fallen backwards into a skillful dodge by having avoided somehow putting more than 1 small bet into the pot by the turn, gleefully run away unless you have a solid favorite. what are you doing? the 1 small bet is a win.

and i know you won. this thread is addressing the 9 other times you tried this.

[elysium]

[Clarkmeister]

"so how would you have played the flop? and do you always raise AKo preflop in the bb against 5 players? "

Taking the second question first, yes, I almost always (call it 95% of the time) raise AKo preflop from the BB against 5 players. In fact, change the #5 to any other # and my answer is the same.

As for the first question, the pot is so small that I think its a poor time for a flop checkraise. This isn't the kind of board where people are going to get cute. The BB bets into the entire field on a 3 flush board, you are going to clear the field out a lot of the time. You really really don't want a freebie here. Make the lone little hearts that might get brave later fold now, make the gutshot straights with no heart fold now, make the pocket pairs fold now. With that board, a simple bet is going to accomplish that most of the time.

[Ian M.]

I agree 100% with this way of playing the hand. If this hand WAS raised preflop so the pot was twice as big, do you think the flop should be played the same way? You would like to narrow down the field but you still don't want to take the risk of giving a free turn card. Personally I think I would still bet out here, hoping to be raised.

[mike l.]

"The BB bets into the entire field on a 3 flush board, you are going to clear the field out a lot of the time... Make the lone little hearts that might get brave later fold now"

i totally disagree. the smallest bare hearts may fold but most losing players (and most players are losers) will call with a pair and a heart, a gutshot and a heart, a medium or decent sized heart, and maybe less sometimes. they play loose. they see the board is scary, but they dont care, they want to make a hand. however if they check and then someone behind them bets and i am able to checkraise then they will fold to 2 bets cold usually. you are giving the average player too much credit. also i think you insinuated that because the pot is small most players will take that into account. that is ludicrous. most players playing 8-16 would not consider the size of the pot when making a decision about whether to stay in or not.

[mike l.]

something no one is mentioning about the turn is the fact that this player is an okay player trying to think. that means he is capable of betting the turn after 4 players check to him twice with no heart. also if he held a big heart he may have bet the flop himself. plus my image matched with the board scares him. on the turn im pretty much playing the board, not my AK. my AK had dissolved to 32o at that point. if i didnt get a fold on the turn my plan was to give up on the hand, i felt pretty confident at the time that he held very little and that he would give it up for my turn checkraise. it was marginal, but the correct play in this case i think.

[Tyler Durden]

[brad]

i think a lot depends on how many others are to act after the player who bet the turn.

if he was last to act then it can almost be a no brainer to play it the way you did (depending on players, etc.)

[mikelow]

[mike l.]

there was one player and the sb after turn bettor.

[brad]

yeah so its pretty much a 'button gets checked to twice and so he bets the turn' situation.

ill say one thing you played it totally thematically.

sure clarkmeister would raise preflop and bet flop but that is a different theme /images/graemlins/smile.gif heh

[Jeff V]

Just as I thought.