Couldn't get an answer on theory board. POT ODDS question....

[Gomez22]

When dealing with pot odds on the flop (or any time before the turn, when the bets double), is it correct to, at that time, use the value of the small bet for the odds? For example:

I'm in a 1/2 hold em, typical game.

Pre-flop, 6 players, including both blinds call.

There would be $5.50 in the pot (don't forget the rake).

I'm on the button holding........ say....... K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

The flop is: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Right now, I have 2nd best pair on board, but there's been a bet from SB and a raise from the BB, and everyone else calls to me. Call 2 bets cold with middle pair?

There would be 14 small bets in the pot coming to me. If I called, I would be getting 16-1 odds, right? Or should it be calculated at big bets? (17-1 if the SB calls). My drawing odds would be about 9-1 (3 kings, 2 tens). Should I then call in this situation or should I fold? If I call, then the turn comes at a blank, I would then be at 8-1 pot odds and still at 9-1 drawing odds. If the flop raiser bets and everyone else folds, I'm at slightly better than even odds (10-1 pot odds, and about 9.2-1 drawing odds, so I would call).

I guess that before the turn, I would like to know how to consider pot odds.

Thanks in advance for helping me out with this.....

[GrinningBuddha]

Others will probably explain this more clearly, but I'll give it a shot:

On the flop, you are immediately facing 15 - 2 pot odds (15 bets in, and 2 to call), which works out to 7.5 - 1. If we assume SB will just call, that will be 8 - 1 odds. If there's a risk of a reraise, then the odds are worse.

Now, let's count our outs, assuming we're behind (we almost certainly are):

3 Ks and 2 Ts make us 2 pair, but the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif can't really be considered outs here, since those other 3 people just called two cold and one of them likely has spades. So that leaves us with 3 outs, and a backdoor broadway straight possiblity (1 out is generous seeing that you have to hit a Q and J, neither of which can be spades). 4 outs translates to you needing 11 - 1 odds.

At best, you're getting paid 8 - 1 on an 11 - 1 shot. Time to fold, even with all of those callers helping out...

You should be calculating odds based on the current bet size, unless you're figuring in implied odds, or reverse implied odds (having to pay money to see cards). In this case, you can safely make your decision with just the current round of betting.

[Gomez22]

Thanks Buddha... that works for me....

[MrDannimal]

Yup. 15-2 to call the raise. At this level, I don't worry about the rake when I figure the odds (esp. at a B&M, where I'm just counting bets).

BTW, I also replied to your posted hand and commented on the odds. Good practice for us all. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gomez22]

Thanks... just what I was looking for.... I wanted to include the rake so I could be "technically correct".... or at least as close to it as I care to come when TALKING about odds. /images/graemlins/cool.gif