Request Comments???

[Gomez22]

I've only been playing for about 4 weeks now. All my play has been at Empire, but I'm registered at Stars and hoping to be playing a little there soon. I'd appreciate some critique on this hand if possible.
.50/1.00 game at Empire (not sure of all the technical terms yet, but no pre-flop raises going on and about 4-6 stay per hand for the flop).
I'm UTG with K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I call, UTG+1 calls, fold, call, call, call, fold, SB calls, BB checks.
FLOP: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
Everyone checks around
TURN: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif
SB & BB check, I bet out (since there's no action, and I COULD hit the flush, I figure to pad the pot a little and I can't really see a raise coming here).UTG+1 calls, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls.
RIVER: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check, as do the other 2. I'm taken down by UTG+1, holding pocket Jacks (I only had K high, what did I expect???).
One question: Should I have bet the river, portraying Queens, and hope for folds, or did I play this OK? I seem to have problems making the marginal calls right now and sometimes am not too sure when I should be super aggressive (except when it would be obvious, even to Stevie Wonder).
Any and all comments would be appreciated.

[Tosh]

Muck K9s UTG everytime. In fact its rarely ever playable.

[pudley4]

Even in a loose-passive game, K9s is a marginal hand UTG. I'd usually fold.

Flop: fine
Turn: fine
River: fine

You didn't bet the flop, so it's difficult to represent queens. Also, UTG+1 seems like one of the many calling stations who populate these LL games, so even if you had bet the flop, river, and turn (to represent the Q), he most likely still would have called you.

[brian0729]

K9s muck everytime under the gun. I know Tosh said this. I am just repeating for you and myself. I throw this away now I didnt a few weeks ago and I have to remind myself from time to time so I dont slip /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Flop: check fold to any bet, dont chase they will deal again
Turn: good bet to try and get some money in there for your flush
River: check fold to any bet you lose to any card that pairs with the board

Summary: Just muck it.

[Gomez22]

I can see your point about the flop, pudley. Sometimes I think I have a decent understanding of the basics of play, and other times I feel like a five year old trying to understand Quantum physics....... what a game!!!

[Nottom]

I like K9s in this sort of game and would generally be playing it UTG unlike many of the other posters, just be careful if the aggression level starts to pick up.

I think the turn bet is a mistake here, since the pot is pretty small (3BB) and you have basically no chance of winning the pot here (certainly not the 1-in-4 chance that would make this a profitable bluff on its own) and aren't going to get good value with callers. Check-calling is the preferred play I think.

On the river, you need to win this hand 1-in-7 times to make the bet worthwhile. Again, I just don't think you will win that often so check-folding is best at this point.

[brian0729]

I thought I knew how to play when i was playing with play money, then I found out I was clueless with real cash. I bought Lee Jones's-Winning low limit hold em and having been doing much better ever since. I highly recommend it will make a difference for you.

[Tosh]

A bet on the river would be representing a straight more than a queen.

[Gomez22]

I was the same way.... I bought Helmuth's book and a book by Warner. Lost about $150 in a week playing 1/2 & 2/4 at Empire. 2 weeks ago, I got Sklansky's Texas Hold 'Em and Hold 'Em for advanced players and since then, have played only at .50/1.00 tables..... winnings: $65.75 (only averaging about $4.00/hour) but it's a hell of an improvement(at least to me) from where I started. I ordered Jones's book from Amazon a couple of days ago and can't wait for it to get here.

[Tosh]

I'm not convinced over winning low limit hold'em. When I first read it I felt it helped. Now I just find a lot of it to be a bit dubious based on my experience playing and discussions on these board. He offers some advice that will cost you a lot of bets by being overly passive. I don't like his starting hands either.

[brian0729]

For starting out I felt it was great for me, because I had so much to learn. It gave me a good place to start. I do somethings differently than Jones suggests but I think you learn those things from table hours and your own style of play.

PS. Be leary of S&M Holdem for advanced players at a beginning stage. The book is for a little higher levels and for a little better competition, this can cloud your judgement for some of the low limit games. It did for me anyway

[TBone]

I think a more experienced player could get away playing this hand in this position, but for a relative newbie it could spell a lot of bets lost.

He was beat by JJ, no raise pre-flop, no raise on the turn when a rag hit after it was originally checked around on the flop, and no bet on the river. Aggression may never be shown by some of the calling stations.

I'd suggest as a relative newbie, the original poster avoid hands like this.

T

[HUSKER'66]

hello Gomez, welcome to the forum!
That being said, I am going to agree with a lot of the other post here K /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif under the gun is rarely playable, especially in early position. I think that it would be good for us to explain the logic for this in a little more detail. The first question that you need to ask yourself for this group of pocket cards ( and all others as well) is what kind of hand am I looking for this to develop into. Let me ask you, what kind of flop are you hoping for with K9 suited? If you flop a K you do not have the best kicker, if you flop a 9, you have a good kicker but will probably encounter "overcards" on the flop or later in the hand. /images/graemlins/frown.gif "But they are soooooooooted" you shout /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Keep this in mind, you are going to flop a four flush (2 in your hand and 2 like suited cards about 1 in 9 times (11%). the odds against (easier to understand /images/graemlins/smile.gif) are 8/1. Not very good eh?!?!? This might and I say that loosely, might be playable in a loose passive game in late position, with several callers before you. Your going to then need a flop that "hits you in the face" to continue to stay in the hand post flop. The perfect scenario would to have 5 or 6 limpers before you, you call as well and have the flop come A /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif(for example only). Now you have a strong draw to the nut flush, and are going to hit a club 1 out of 3 times by the river. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif(2/1 against with two more cards to come)You hope that several players stay in to help build the pot, your in a later position, so you can see any "action" in front of you, and the pot odds are in line for a call even if someone in front raises.(you have the outs to call two "cold" on the flop or turn. In this example above, you would play all the way until the river, and if you hit the flush....(let's think positive! /images/graemlins/grin.gif) make a good bit of cash. Continue to post hands, read and learn from this forum, and we'll see you at the tables!

[lil']

[ QUOTE ]
This might and I say that loosely, might be playable in a loose passive game in late position, with several callers before you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would certainly call in late position with K-9s in a loose passive game with several limpers before me.

Anyway, as far as the original post is concerned, I wouldn't advise limping in with K-9s UTG if you can't get away from a pair when it appears you may be dominated. After playing for only 4 weeks, I dunno if that's possible. Actually, I don't know if can do it consistently myself...

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
For starting out I felt it was great for me, because I had so much to learn. It gave me a good place to start. I do somethings differently than Jones suggests but I think you learn those things from table hours and your own style of play.

PS. Be leary of S&M Holdem for advanced players at a beginning stage. The book is for a little higher levels and for a little better competition, this can cloud your judgement for some of the low limit games. It did for me anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Its good for absolute beginners. But even at this early stage of my poker career I find a lot of the advice to be passive and often very weak. I found it a useful starter but not much more.

[HUSKER'66]

Agreed. I was trying to keep my tips on preflop play very conservative and tight. You have to have several callers in the hand before you, and be willing to fold a lot if the flop doesn't hit you pretty hard. I was trying to follow the "kiss" principle......... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Bob T.]

I'm not sure about this, but in my mind, this is the most treacherous hand in Holdem. It only has just about everyway possible to make the second best hand.

If you flop a King, all of the other playable hands with a king in it, have better kickers.

If you flop a nine, you can still be beat by A9, and there are a bunch of overcards that can show up.

If you are lucky enough to make two pair, you are still susceptible to a Q, J, or T, which might make a straight.

If you make a straight, you can be behind AK, and everyone else in the hand, may have two pair, and be drawing live to a full house.


If you make a flush, you are still susceptible to an Ace High flush.

I play K9 suited on the button, in the blinds, and maybe the Cutoff if the button is passive, for 1 bet, and 1 bet only. If the pot gets raised, all of those hands that easily dominate this hand are all too likely in play.

Maybe I've just had bad luck with this hand, but I really think it is close to the worst hand in holdem, and in a raised pot, I am very certain that it is the worst hand in holdem.

[rkiray]

I usually like K9s UTG. I just checked my database where I have 6492 hands UTG. I got K9s in this position 22 times, and I only folded 31.8% of the time. I average 1.01 BBs/hand in this condition, so it works for me.

[HUSKER'66]

You, obviously know how to play it post flop. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rkiray]

I get away from it very quickly if I don't flop big. I decided UTG was too small of a sample size so I looked at it in all early positions. Now I have 61 hands. I fold 29.5% and average 1.2 BBs/hand.

[HUSKER'66]

Those stats are more in line with what they should be. I didn't doubt you /images/graemlins/wink.gifbut K9s doesn't seem to be an +EV play overall. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[slavic]

Hi Gomez22-

I'm sure you've probably already seen some rough comments so I'll temper what I normally tell myself after I play this hand.

K9c fold this UTG preflop. Unless the flop comes QJTc you are asking for some trouble here.

(Slavic's alter ego: It's like an Ax's but trendy and Dyansty says play Ax's here. Don't we want to be trendy? Ooh Ooh let's raise and call it a change of pace play. Yea Yea then if it works I can post it. Yes Trendy deceptive ownage, oh baby! I wonder why he 3 bet? Well I have one club runner runner may get there. Ooh another club, why does he keep raising? Rats, maybe he'll fold to a bluff.)

Flop: well played

Turn: This semi bluff is almost never right at this limit. You are going to have to show a hand to win so bluffing is almost useless.

River: Well played.

I't seems strange to say but ABC poker will win here, bet when you have it check fold when you don't.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: This semi bluff is almost never right at this limit. You are going to have to show a hand to win so bluffing is almost useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was more of a value bet than a semi bluff.

[slavic]

Wow I just looked through my PT database (the new version is the bomb) and I'll be darned if K9s isn't profitable for me in EP. .93 BB/hand. I fold it a ton though.

[Gomez22]

Thanks slavic. Good humor in your post... Been reading stuff here alot the past week or so.... never know if other's opinions will help (or even if my stubborn ass will pay attention) but I appreciate the feedback.

BTW.... I did it again about 2 hours ago... K9s UTG......




FLOP: K 9 K


Everyone folded to me on the turn... Sometimes I really HATE THIS GAME /images/graemlins/blush.gif)

[Gomez22]

What exactly IS the difference between a value bet and a semi-bluff?

[slavic]

Ok in this case, let's assume you have 12 cards that make your hand.

9 clubs and 3 Kings. So to make you hand you have a 12/46 shot. or 2.8 to 1 So if you can bet and get 3 or more callers you are making money because you are getting money into the pot when you are getting better odds on new money going in. This is a value bet.

A semi bluff is when you bluff with the non best hand that if called may improve to the best hand in a hope that you take the pot right there.

See pg 47 of Hold'em Poker by Sklansky, or P53 of Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players(21st century edition) by Sklansky and Malmuth.

[rkiray]

I fold it in aggressive games (say more than 25% of preflops raised), but I generally try to find passive games. Loose passive is even better. But the stats look almost identical to me. Just triple the number of hands since I was looking at all the early position seats.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Muck K9s UTG everytime. In fact its rarely ever playable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You and everyone else who is saying to muck K9s in a game as loose and passive as this are nuts. You're up against players who won't bet their JJ even on the turn after the flop gets checked through.

I think I've said this once before. K9s is the most underrated hand in hold 'em. The results this hand gets in real databases and simulations dramatically outperform where the hand is ranked by 2+2 and other ranking systems.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn bet is a mistake here, since the pot is pretty small (3BB) and you have basically no chance of winning the pot here

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn bet is very good. In this spot, I would usually think that I would win a showdown by hitting a club, King, or just a 9 on the river. The turn bet should ensure the KJ and A9 hands some posters are so afraid of will fold.

The only problem I see with the bet is that you may get called in several places by people holding a small pair, 6, or 5. That may make your river play tricky. It'll be hard to tell whether a bluff river bet can work.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
He was beat by JJ, no raise pre-flop, no raise on the turn when a rag hit after it was originally checked around on the flop, and no bet on the river. Aggression may never be shown by some of the calling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a strong arguement to play K9s, not to muck it.

[Dynasty]

[quoteI would certainly call in late position with K-9s in a loose passive game with several limpers before me.

[/ QUOTE ]

K9s is getting damn close to raiseable in that spot. Although, I can't remember doing it myself.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
If you flop a King, all of the other playable hands with a king in it, have better kickers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fortunately, our opponents are not just playing the "other playable hands with a king in it". Instead, they are happily jumping into pots with K8o down to K2o.

[ QUOTE ]
If you flop a nine, you can still be beat by A9, and there are a bunch of overcards that can show up.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's paranoid to be worried about A9. If overcards come, you play it similar to 99 (although K9 is better in that spot).

[ QUOTE ]
If you are lucky enough to make two pair, you are still susceptible to a Q, J, or T, which might make a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean you'll be happy when somebody else flops two-pair when a Q and J, Q and T, or J and T come on the flop? Again, you're worrying too much about people making big hands against you.

[ QUOTE ]
If you make a straight, you can be behind AK, and everyone else in the hand, may have two pair, and be drawing live to a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

More paranoia.

[ QUOTE ]
If you make a flush, you are still susceptible to an Ace High flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

So much paranoia.

[Bob T.]

I have a little over 40,000 hands in my database, and this hand is very close to even in my database. I know that I don't play it in early position. In fact, I folded 110 out of 110 times in early position. So I can't speak for its playability, but for me, at least, I don't think it is playable in early position.

[Bob T.]

Maybe I just have either bad luck, with this hand, or maybe I just play it poorly. Everyone else seems to be winning with it, and I only break even.

Maybe I just play it poorly, because I don't like it very well. I might have to take another look at it.