To wait or not?

[Coilean]

I limp in the cutoff with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif after 2 limpers. The button and blinds come along, and 6 of us see the flop of 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif for 1 bet each. Checked to me, I bet, button (a loose aggressive) calls, SB (a tight agressive) raises, I call, button calls. The turn is a small brick (3/images/graemlins/spade.gif I think), SB bets, I raise. Should I have waited?

[mike l.]

wait for what? to make sure a diamond doesnt come on the river? nah, go ahead and charge the draw the max if that's what the button or sb (or both hopefully) is on.

when dealing with a vulnerable hand like weak top pair ace kicker i usually try and thin the field on the flop, so i would normally 3 bet the flop here. with AJ and Jxy board or something i think waiting till the turn is more the default.

[Jeff V]

Nope. Actually 3 betting the flop woulda been nice too. If the sb is good he's probably trying to thin the field w/ a draw. Charge him.

[Pot-A]

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. How does it make sense for SB to thin down the field for a draw unless there's some reasonable chance that he can buy the pot right there?

[Jeff V]

Sorry actually meant OR has a big draw

[andyfox]

"I limp in the cutoff . . . after 2 limpers."

I don't like it already. I like it even less when you don't 3-bet the flop to try and get the button out. Actually to try to get out as many players as possible out with a vulnerable top pair.

I can't tell whether you're teasing us with "Should I have waited?" I'm not sure your hand is good given sb is tight/aggressive, but there sure are an awful lot of cards that I wouldn't like to see on the river against two opponents, so I'd try to get one (or both) or them out right now.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
"I limp in the cutoff . . . after 2 limpers."

I don't like it already

[/ QUOTE ]

I love it. Limping is definitely the best play.

[andyfox]

Not for me. I have a much easier time from the cut-off when the button doesn't play. I have the utmost respect for both your game and Coilean's, but why not "buy" the button here if you're going to play?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Coilean. I am surprised that you didn't raise btf to lose the button and blinds in the first place. It seems you expected a multiway pot and that your motivation for limping btf was to build same. On the flop, with your hand so vulnerable to overcards and the 2 diamonds on board, I think 3 betting is preferable to simply calling a raise. On the turn, I can't imagine why you would even consider just calling. I think your play was more questionable on the flop and btf. LGPG, Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[skp]

I too would limp. One reason is my opponents' propensity to put all preflop raisers on a big Ace (here, I don't have a BIG ace but I do have an Ace). Aceless flops are assumed by my opponents to have missed me while Ace high flops lead to checkcalls or checkfolds. In other words, while my opponents are wrong in other instances in assuming that I have a big Ace when I raise, they would be right in this spot. Their ability to "read" me correctly here coupled with the fact that my hand ain't exactly all that great makes me limp rather than raise. Also, by limping, I can represent more hands postflop i.e. as compared to when I raise preflop.

That's just a couple of reasons for limping. There are more...just as there are, I am sure, reasons for raising. In this spot, I think it's just a matter of preference; I tend to limp a lot more than you seem to.

Incidentally, I think that Coilean should 3 bet the flop for the reasons best given by Mikel.

[Dynasty]

The Button is going to fold most of the time anyway. You don't need to be putting an extra small bet into the pot everytime you play a hand from the cutoff.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Dynasty- Why is the guy with the best position at the table going to fold "MOST OF THE TIME"? I don't think that is true. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, I can't imagine why you would even consider just calling

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBabe(aka), mike l., and Jeff V are all misinterpreting Coilean's line "Should I have waited?"

Coilean is not asking whether he should not have raised the turn and waited until the river. He is asking whether it was correct for him to wait until the turn to raise rather than 3-betting the flop.

I think waiting until the turn was correct.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Dynasty- Why is the guy with the best position at the table going to fold "MOST OF THE TIME"? I don't think that is true. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's going to be dealt junk most of the time. Does posessing the button suddenly get him dealt better hands?

I doubt you even play 1/4 of your button hands.

[sam h]

I think Dynasty is correct on both counts here.

Waiting puts more pressure on draws and allows Coilean to get money in when his equity is considerable higher after a good turn card. He doesn't want to three-bet the flop and then not know what to do when something like an overcard diamond hits.

[skp]

But the LA behind Coilean could be calling with all kinds of hands that he might fold to a 3 bet. I am thinking primarily of two overcards and Coilean would want him to fold. Also, the sb raiser is described as being tight aggressive. A 3 bet on the flop by Coilean will allow him to get away from the hand at a cheaper cost if the Sb continues to show power in the face of Coilean's 3 bet.

Again, I like Mike l.'s explanation for 3 betting. I am not srongly for 3 betting the flop bt I do think it's a better play if only slightly.

[elysium]

hi coil
just call here coil. the SB is betting out and your call should technically close the action. you also have a bad button on a draw. you never know with those types. just call. a raise isn't awful, but why find out where you are against the SB or try to fold the button? you need better reasons to raise than just that, and you certainly aren't looking to build a monster size pot. now, who are you.....coilean; coilean i'm not going to tell you how to make the button only call, and happily close the action. but having a total game plan, and having control of the table will give you technical LP many, many times. that button should still be s g from the last time he raised you. here, you use pain to make a call correct.

[andyfox]

"Does posessing the button suddenly get him dealt better hands?"

Yes. Pocket deuces is a much better hand on the button behind 3 limpers than it is UTG. The number of playable hands on the button is far greater than it is from earlier positions.

[andyfox]

I think the value of disguise in non-head up pots is overrated against most opponents. This hand is an example. Had Coilean raised preflop, apparently his opponents would be more likely to think this raggedy flop missed him. Yet here his opponent check-raised and bet into him on the flop despite the fact he limped pre-flop. So the fact that he can represent something more convincingly for having limped is lost on Mr. loose/aggressive. And if you want disguise, then why not raise here pre-flop where your hand "ain't all that great"?

We have, of course, had this discussion before. The "matter of preference" you mention may be the crux of the matter. I like to be last to act and play against fewer opponents. Limping pre-flop minimizes my chances of accomplishing those aims.

[Dynasty]

Your being deceptive. The hands you are dealt are the same. The change in value comes soley from the position. You are still going to get dealt junk a significant majority of the time on the button.

[Coilean]

Oops! Dynasty is absolutely correct, my question was about whether to reraise the flop, or to wait until the turn to raise. Anyone who thought I was out of my mind to consider waiting until the river to raise is also absolutely correct. Clearly, my poor choice of words left a bit too much open for interpretation. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Coilean]

...both opponents folded to my turn raise.

After the hand I felt I should have reraised on the flop, since at 10 bets the pot was growing too large for me to let the button draw at overcards (his most likely holding here, IMO) for cheap. He had a 13% chance to hit an overcard on the turn, so letting him in with overcards was netting me 0.87*1SB = +0.87SB from his call, while costing me 0.13*10SB = 1.3SB from the pot by letting him hit. This is a grossly simplified analysis, but even so it should be pretty hard to make back that 0.43SB I'm giving up in the most common flop scenarios by raising the turn those less frequent times when I have the best hand and get to charge a draw or lesser hand the extra 1SB.

[elysium]

hi coilean
this is what i mean; you're results title mentioning 'exciting' is indicating by sarcasm that you're not exactly happy that your opponents folded. you realize that maybe a call or two more could have been gotten by calling instead of raising, and that you took a substantial risk of getting called or raised by a better hand. yes, you won, but the folds mean that your opponents were drawing thin. somehow, maybe by yea....the little sarcasm in the results title, i think that if you knew that your opponents would fold, somehow i sense that you would have gone for the over-calls. sometimes, you don't want to find out that you're in the lead by folding out a couple of opponents who otherwise would have bet or called with weaker hands drawing very thin. exciting isn't it? that combined with the risk posed by the solid SB indicates maybe calling in this situation is best.

[skp]

An observation (that may have little or no bearing on the topic):

When I raise in late position and then the limpers call, I have a harder time reader their hands postflop as opposed to when there has been no raise. Granted, it's harder to read the blinds when there has been no raise.

When I raise in early position, it's easier to read my opponents' hands (after they have coldcalled) as opposed to when I open-limp in early position and they too limp.

Agree?

[Paluka]

I think it is a close call preflop on limping vs raising, but I lean towards limping unless the previous limpers are awful players who could have some real trash hands. I definitely like 3 betting the flop to knock out the button.
One difference between raising preflop and limping is the fact that you limped preflop means the sb's hand would normally be a bit stronger here than if you had raised preflop, especially if he is a weak player. Players out of the blinds seem to like taking shots at preflop raisers on raggy flops when they make anything at all. The fact that you limped preflop means there is a chance the flop actually hit you and he has to worry about this.

[andyfox]

"When I raise in late position and then the limpers call, I have a harder time reader their hands postflop as opposed to when there has been no raise. Granted, it's harder to read the blinds when there has been no raise."

The limpers will tend to "check to the raiser" so their flop check or call is indeed a less reliable indication of weakness than a check in an unraised pot.

When I raise in early position, it's easier to read my opponents' hands (after they have coldcalled) as opposed to when I open-limp in early position and they too limp.

Agree.

Another point: In my game, many players are less likely to call a flop bet in a raised pot (especially when the bet is made by the pre-flop raiser) than in an unraised pot. They should logically call more often in the raised pot, since they're getting better odds, but they don't, reasoning that the pre-flop raiser must have something since he has now shown strength twice.

[andyfox]

I'm not being deceptive. The button is going to play a much greater number of hands after you've limped in the cut-off than UTG+1 is going to play after you've limped UTG. The same hand that is "junk" UTG+1 can be a raising hand on the button.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

As Andy notes, when you are on the button, an ep's junk is the button's treasure.

Even a weak-tight playing girl will raise with A,8 on the button, D. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

LGPG, Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Rushmore]

It seems like we're all pickin fly crap outta pepper here.

When you flop top pair, and it's a pair of 8's, and you happen to have the best kicker, and there's betting...

KEEP THROWING CHIPS IN ON THE FLOP!!!

As they say...wtf?!

[elysium]

hi coilean, hi mike
the flop 3 bet is pretty much standard play. i'm not sure what it accomplishes, but i always 3 bet in this situation. the thing is, coilean would raise the turn whether he 3 bet the flop or not. i thought that was what the post was about; whether to wait to raise until the river when coilean improves. i never did understand what 'should i have waited meant?' that is no issue on the flop. it's....what, is this post about 3 betting the flop people? that if coilean had 3 bet the flop he wouldn't have raised the turn? that the turn was somehow influenced by the flop decision not to 3 bet? or worse, you're discussing perhaps not 3 betting the flop?

no. coilean didn't 3 bet the flop, i know. but i thought that he had made his decision on the flop to raise the turn if bet into and was only manipulating the pot size, not doing an either/or thing. unless the flop is capped, i have coilean raising the turn anyway.

ok well, if the discussion degenerated into considering the merits of 3 betting the flop, and how the flop 3 bet dictated turn action, rather than just seeing the 3 bet for what it is, a little rudder here or there; here, coil decides to manipulate the pot size downward in preparation for the turn raise. had coil 3 bet, coil would still raise the turn not being able to justify changing his plan of action based on his flop 3 bet tweek, unless of course the SB caps it. but then, it's not the 3 bet but the cap by the reraiser that matters. not the 3 bet. no.

if the 3 bet is called, coil raises the turn anyway. if not; if the 3 bet influences his turn action meaning that if he 3 bets the flop he won't raise the turn; if it's an either/or thing here, then your approach is wrong. the turn should be given heavier consideration than the point in the hand when the option to 3 bet arrives. in other words, as soon as the flop is raised, coil must decide what he is going to do on the turn when it's 1 bet to him. if he's going to call the turn, he 3 bets for value; if he's going to raise the turn, he either 3 bets for value (and making the draws pay, etc), or he calls the flop raise to manipulate the pot size downward to get the fold when he raises the turn. NOT he either 3 bets the flop or raises the turn, EITHER/OR! but doggonit, that's what .....that is what your all discussing. the flop 3 bet is the rudder people, the rudder of the turn decision that coil should already have made at that time; as soon as coil is aware the flop has been raised. it is not either/or.