2 hands did I wimp out?

[rjc199]

Party 0.5/1 I'm new at this table, but most eveyrbody is loose-passive. 2 semi-maniacs who raise with FaceXo randomly.

Hand 1:

I get [Q /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif ] in LP. 1 limper to me. I limp. Button limps, sb folds, BB checks.

Flop [ 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, T /images/graemlins/spade.gif, K /images/graemlins/club.gif ]

I have 2nd pair and a flush draw to 2nd nuts. I bet out and 1 caller.

Turn [ A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]

It is checked to me and I decide to take a free card. I'm not sure whether this is the right play or not. I think I should have bet. Obviously this A didn't help him, but it did give me a bellybuster draw to the nuts. Also I have position and it looks scary to him. I think a semi-bluff bet would be the +ev move here.

River [ 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif ]

He checks to me and I bet. I thought since I showed weakness on the turn that he might call my bet thinking I was bluffing, but really if I was on the flush draw this is the exact move I would make. He folded. I think I should have bet the turn and he would have called and also probably called the river too.

Hand 2:

This is a weird hand.

I get J4o in the BB. There are 3 limpers to me and I check.

FLop [ 7, 3, J ] 2 diamonds. I don't have a diamond.

sb acts first and bets. For some unknown reason I raise him (I didn't think he had top pair, but my kicker is real bad). One cold caller and sb reraises me. Again for some unknown reason I call?

Turn [ 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

Was it some sort of ESP that I stayed to see this? Anyway he bets into me, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap? I got carried away. He is behaving like he has a set. I decide to check-call the rest of the way.

River [ A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]

Completing the flush board. He checks to me and I simply check fearing a check-raise from a better hand (a set). The turn raising war told me he wasn't on a flush, so I didn't fear that, I only feared a set. I ask myself, would a set play this way? Maybe, but why would he check to me on the river if he had a set. There was no way I could be on a flush draw after that raising war.

Showdown: He had JTo for the uber-overplayed top pair mediocre kicker. I feel real lucky after this hand, I should have lost a fortune. Should I have folded to the original flop bet? I would feel weak if I folded top pair (even if I have no kicker to go along).

[GrinningBuddha]

Hand 1: A bet on the turn probably takes it down here if he doesn't have an ace (he likely didn't), and as you can see in this hand, he isn't calling on the river either. I'd bet the turn against one opponent in the hopes of taking it down, with lots of room to improve if need be on the river.

Hand 2: If the small blind bets here, I fold faster than you can say "dominated". There are good times to chase your two pair, and there are bad times, and this, my friend, is a bad time. You managed to pull it out this time, but often you'll be up against J7, 77, or 33. And then you'll feel even worse. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tosh]

I think you should definitely bet the turn on hand 1.

[Dynasty]

You should start raising with big suited cards in LP after just one limper. You want to win some of these hands with a bet on the flop which one opponent doesn't call regardless of whether you hit the flop or not.

[rjc199]

I will start doing this.

Thanks for your suggestions. Everytime I heed your advice I make $$$$$$. (ala raising TT and JJ preflop), continueing to bet it when 1 overcard falls on the flop.

I wanted to ask you what do I do in the case of having a hand like TT or JJ and 2 overcards fall like A Q x or K Q x? Do I play it like I have the best until shown otherwise? Do I laydown to a raise?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
what do I do in the case of having a hand like TT or JJ and 2 overcards fall like A Q x or K Q x

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet it when you have the best hand and you check it when you don't. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Experience and developing your hand reading skills will help you make those judgements but nobody can provide an all-encompasing answer or always make the right judgement.

[TBone]

I've won so many hands raising in late position with any hand I'd call with, then betting the flop regardless. (cause I always get checked to) I'd say > 50% of the time, I take the pot down with the flop bet if I've gotten it heads up. I take it down a lot with 2 callers as well. Very profitable play.

BTW rjc, you folded to river bets twice--gotta stop doing that "all the time." If a player is astute enough (seen at higher levels, but some decent players play 1/2 as well) to notice you folding the river to 1 bet, ESPECIALLY if you bet the turn, he/she will bet into you on the river on missed draws. You occasionally have to call that down, especially if you might have the best hand. (ie. Hands 1 & 5 or 6)

T

T

[Homer]

I'd say > 50% of the time, I take the pot down with the flop bet if I've gotten it heads up. I take it down a lot with 2 callers as well. Very profitable play.

I don't take it down that often on the flop, but I take it down a ton on the turn. Players love to take one off on the cheap street and fold when the turn card misses them (which is usually the case).

DON'T BE AFRAID TO FIRE THE SECOND BARREL!

-- Homer

[JTG51]

DON'T BE AFRAID TO FIRE THE SECOND BARREL!

I couldn't agree more, but I'd like to add DON'T BE AFRAID TO FIRE THE THIRD BARREL (on occasion)! By the way, has there ever been a gun with a third barrel?

There's a popular misconception that when players call on the turn, they are going to call on the river too so a bluff is worthless. That's not true, especially if you are making this play with a hand like KJ. It's almost criminal to check behind on the river and lose to an A high that was fishing around with overcards. Plus, low limit players really will call with a small pair on the flop and turn then fold on the river once in a while.

[rjc199]

I've been watching things like this to see how often people fold on the river to a bet heads-up or 3 handed. It is unbelievable. Most people are either extrememly weak or they chase to the river with nothing.

[rjc199]

This folding on the river stuff happened again to me last night and I didn't know what to do. Help /images/graemlins/confused.gif:

I had AKo in MP. UTG limped and it was folded to me. I raised and the guy behind me cold called. He had just sat down at the table and I didn't have him loaded into my pokertracker yet, so I won't talk about what kind of player he was, because it wasn't in my mind during the play.

Anyway everybody else folded and the UTG limper called my raise. 3 see the flop.

Flop [ 3, Q, 2 ] 2 diamonds, my king is a diamond.

The UTG checks to me. Well I don't want to check here because that tells everybody the flop missed me and I have big unpaired cards and not a diamond draw. I bet out. The guy behind me raises! I now have no clue what to do. There are 2 situations here: (1) he cold called with crap and is raising here to see if I'm trying to steal (2) he has AQ or KQ or something like that.

Now on an earlier hand in a similar situation with AK (a different guy who simply called my flop bet) I bet out on the turn again and he folded. Here I call his bet becuase I have overcards and a backdoor straight. I decide to bet again on the turn to see if he was trying to stop a bluff or was being maniacal.

The Turn is a 5 and I bet out and he calls. I think I've pretty much stopped a bluff yet he is calling, so I'm pretty sure he has a hand. Now I have this gutshot opportunity with the overcards.

The river is another 5. I pause for 1 second and check to him and he has the auto-bet on, I don't even think about calling this and I fold.

Was this a weak river fold? Was I being too aggressive on the turn?

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]

You should start raising with big suited cards in LP after just one limper. You want to win some of these hands with a bet on the flop which one opponent doesn't call regardless of whether you hit the flop or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds right to me as far as it goes. But:

(1) Does QT qualify as "big suited cards"? Seems to me like you're asking for trouble, especially in low limit Party where people will play any A and many will play any K -- and hold on for dear life by calling through the river. So your raise might not knock out the hands you're trying to knock out, only the ones that you're already ahead of. With Q high I'd rather see the flop cheap and go from there.

(2) Why did you limit your advice to SUITED cards. Doesn't it apply equally well -- and maybe even better -- to unsuited?

[rjc199]

I have too many messages going at the same time.

Which hands previous to this one are you talking about river folds?

[anatta]

I used to think this way. Hands like KT or QJ suited or not, I would just call in LP vs. one limper. Now I raise way over 50% of the time, folding the weaker hands if the limper is strong.

I play mostly live, and my main criteria for seat selection is to put the loose players to my right. This way, I can isolate them when they limp in with their bad hands. With the tighter players to your left, you will get heads-up a lot more.

If you can get heads-up with position against these players, your hand is plenty strong enough to raise with. Remember, you are folding a lot, so you are bound to get a tight image. Your raise will enable you to steal a lot of pots that come ace or king high.

If your flop bet is called by a calling station, you can take a free card on the turn. No need to bet if you have nothing and he isn't folding. You aren't going to win everytime in poker. The key is taking advantage of small edges that come up time after time.

[hockey1]

Very helpful. Thanks.