Tonight's WSOP thoughts

[TimTimSalabim]

I'm going to beat Easy E to the punch, and offer a few thoughts on tonight's broadcast:

MM's hand where he called Tomer's JT with A2. It appeared that *maybe* this was a good read by MM, that he figured Tomer was taking a stand with two big cards, no Ace. And even if he was behind, he was only risking a small portion of his stack.

Not sure the call with the QJ was so good,though, after Lester raised big with his AQ. But again, MM had him way outchipped, so I guess it's an ok call. Then, of course, he got lucky with the dream 89T flop.

I thought Harrington played it very smart, tournament strategy-wise. He waited for everyone else to get knocked out except for him and the two big stacks, thus sneaking into 3rd. Then he started taking chances knowing he had nothing to lose.

What's up with MM's father making all the comments? They must have had him miked. Actually, it was entertaining listening to him.

MM's K7 bluff. I have to agree with the announcer (for once), that might have been the bluff of the century. I mean, given MM is an amateur, bluffing a pro like Sammy off the pot. Superb move, I have to give MM credit on this one, and perhaps the move that won him the title. The kid's got game. Great timing, since it looked like MM had not been bluffing at all up til then. And he knew Sammy would not want to look stupid calling him down with just top pair. I take back everything bad I ever said about MM! And on another note, how great is it that we get to see the hole cards? Otherwise, we would have missed this.

[hutz]

In a nutshell: I know it's a shorthanded game, but MM was making some very loose calls and catching very lucky. The stone-cold bluff with his busted K-high flush draw? Priceless. Informing Sam during the consoling handshake after the tournament that he had bluffed him off that huge pot? Tacky (although I don't believe there was any ill-mannered intent -- MM was just excited and blurted that out).

[ElSapo]

I hate my VCR. Didn't work, so I have not seen it. Any idea when it will replay?

[Tyler Durden]

Tomer's move in with JTs was ugly. I think he could have waited for a better hand. I was surprised that MM could make such a tough call, but he's done it before, and I guess that's why he's a lot richer than he used to be.

MM's river bluff against Farha was classic, totally amazing. And I liked how Farha tried to tell him that he folded QQ. Moneymaker's look told you that he didn't buy that at all. No way he's folding the bitches on the river.

The last hand was very entertaining. Moneymaker's autocall of the all-in left Farha with a priceless look on his face. I can't imagine what it must have been like for MM to stand up knowing he was two safe cards away from winning the WSOP. I'll bet he was numbed by the whole thing, like it wasn't really happening. His reaction was classic, when he ran to his father. I hope ESPN shows it again soon. Anyone know when?

[wayabvpar]

I missed the first 40 minutes of it, since ESPN can't freakin' decide to leave it in one time slot (which means I had the misfortune of catching ALL of Playmakers...wow, did THAT suck), but I enjoyed the bit I did catch.

I wish we knew for sure that the comments from MM's parents were during the same hand during which they were shown; ESPN has been playing fast and loose with the editing and chronology throughout the tourney. If they WERE from the K high bluff hand, how funny! Chris must have been great at lying to his folks growing up /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Even though I knew MM won, (and since it was 5:58, I knew it was the last hand), I still got goosebumps when he flopped bottom 2 pair and got Farha to bet into him. Good for Chris Moneymaker. He is probably not the best poker player in the world, but he is a lot better than most 'experts' give him credit for.

Sammy Farha was gracious in defeat, and a pleasure to watch throughout the tourney. I would love to sit at his table, even though it would probably cost me a mint...well worth the entertainment price. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[TimTimSalabim]

Strangely, there are no WSOP broadcasts showing up in my Tivo listings for the next two weeks. I would have thought they'd be repeating the hell out of it. ESPN works in mysterious ways.

[Easy E]

yours first, then my other questions/comments:

MM's hand where he called Tomer's JT with A2. It appeared that *maybe* this was a good read by MM, that he figured Tomer was taking a stand with two big cards, no Ace. And even if he was behind, he was only risking a small portion of his stack.
I think this was primarily two things- Chris' big stack and his overvaluing of Ax suited at the final table.

Can we just start a "going all-in on the first hand of a TV tournament is doomed" curse rumor? Whether good hand (Kathy L on WPT, among others) or bad hand, it certainly seems that someone is doomed (at least in TV production logic- we may never know HOW far into the tournament that they really are) right off the bat....

Not sure the call with the QJ was so good,though, after Lester raised big with his AQ. But again, MM had him way outchipped, so I guess it's an ok call. Then, of course, he got lucky with the dream 89T flop.

I thought Jason Lester made some questionable moves on several hands. This one, if you're thinking of going all-in on a flop with overcards and a gutshot, shouldn't you have done this preflop? If you aren't going to go all-in preflop, why do it post-flop?
It may just be a function of NL tournament, but I didn't really get the reasoning here- I think it was an "old school" thought process that the newer players wouldn't even consider, so it won't WORK on them.

The hand BEFORE that was the one that I really was surprised by his play. Sam F has Ah9c, Jason L has Jd9d. Flop comes 8c8sAc, both check. Turn is the Td (he's now open-ended) and Jason DOESN'T make a play here?
Then, when the last card falls, helping neither one, and Sam bets 100K, does Jason really think a Jack is good here? Sam's pretty aggressive, would have made a move before then with any kind of hand... so is Jason reading SF for a total steal here?

I thought Harrington played it very smart, tournament strategy-wise. He waited for everyone else to get knocked out except for him and the two big stacks, thus sneaking into 3rd. Then he started taking chances knowing he had nothing to lose.

Agreed generally. Plus, he came across as a tight player in earlier shows. I was a little surprised with his all-in reraise of CM's 100K raise with the KToff, but it was late.
One I didn't understand was: Did CM's check with the full house (Q2off vs. Dan Harrington's A4 off, QQA flop which Chris bets, 2d both check, 7d river, Dan calls CM's 400K bet) confuse Dan into calling and NOT being more aggressive? The river call seemed like a bad read of the turn check- had CM been displaying such a bet-check-bet pattern before?

MM's K7 bluff. I have to agree with the announcer (for once), that might have been the bluff of the century. I mean, given MM is an amateur, bluffing a pro like Sammy off the pot. Superb move, I have to give MM credit on this one, and perhaps the move that won him the title. The kid's got game. Great timing, since it looked like MM had not been bluffing at all up til then. And he knew Sammy would not want to look stupid calling him down with just top pair.

What I liked about this was the way he set it up, with a preflop raise and a fair-sized turn raise. Showed a lot of gumption following through on the river like that.

And on another note, how great is it that we get to see the hole cards? Otherwise, we would have missed this.
I agree for the most part. Can you imagine what we would have guessed at, and been COMPLETELY wrong about, if we HADN'T seen the cards?

On to my other thoughts:
I thought it was kind of cold to do the "losers busting out" segment.

I thought Chris Moneymaker got lucky in a lot of well-timed places, but he made pots as well. One example, the Ah7d 400k raise preflop of Sam Farha holding 5d5x. Flop comes 8d3dTd, Chris bets, the turn 6h CM makes it 500K to drop SF.

After seeing the "show two hands, then show 8 commercials, then a puff piece" routine on the ESPN broadcast (if I counted correctly, we saw a total of THIRTEEN HANDS! From the FINAL TABLE'S END!), I look forward to the WPT next year.

Norm's "looking for the steering wheel" comment rubbed a nerve- sounded VVP-ish.

Was the first and only indicator of how long the final table had lasted (1:30 a.m, 11 hour duration comment by one of the announcers, either 2 or 3 hands before the end of the show) so hard to do that they couldn't do it more often?

I thought CM played his final hand, the two pair flop, very well to suck in Sam F. I wrote down while Chris was debating about Sam's 175K bet with top pair "CM all in? No!"

Well, now we have to wait 5+ months to chatter about this kind of thing again... see everyone at Episode #1, WPT Year #2 in February or so!

[Wake up CALL]

"Was the first and only indicator of how long the final table had lasted (1:30 a.m, 11 hour duration comment by one of the announcers, either 2 or 3 hands before the end of the show) so hard to do that they couldn't do it more often?"

Keep in mind that you are watching "realtime" comments not edited ad-libs like on the WPT. For all we know the announcers gave us all the information we needed quite often but those hands/segments were edited out due to either mundane hands or other time constraints and editing priorities.

[ElSapo]

And beyond the two weeks?

[Easy E]

"Keep in mind that you are watching "realtime" comments not edited ad-libs like on the WPT. For all we know the announcers gave us all the information we needed quite often but those hands/segments were edited out due to either mundane hands or other time constraints and editing priorities"

I'd heard that they were edited in. Also, some of the hands they comment on, we never saw, so they couldn't have known what they had.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that you are watching "realtime" comments not edited ad-libs like on the WPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite, there was one segment, I think it was episode 2 where Norm Chad is commenting on a hand in a "real time" way and when they pan the crowd he's sitting behind Johnny Chan

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that you are watching "realtime" comments not edited ad-libs like on the WPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite, there was one segment, I think it was episode 2 where Norm Chad is commenting on a hand in a "real time" way and when they pan the crowd he's sitting behind Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I should have been more specific since this post was about the final episode, my comments were pertaining to only this.

[slamdunkpro]

Still, it makes one wonder.

[TimTimSalabim]

I've forgotten the line right before "No Mr Bond, I expect you to die"... can you enlighten me?

[Abagadro]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that all ESPN commentary was post-production. I don't think they let anyone see the cards while the tourney was gonig on.

[slamdunkpro]

"Do you expect me to talk?"

[RiverMel]

"What's up with MM's father making all the comments? They must have had him miked."

No, they didn't have him miked, he just speaks VERY, VERY LOUDLY. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Lou]

Same thing happened on WPT France. VVP and MS were both visible standing in the doorway of the card room, yet you heard their commentary and play by play.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I'm pretty sure that all ESPN commentary was post-production. I don't think they let anyone see the cards while the tourney was gonig on.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least you said pretty sure. Nope, there was a seperate soundproof booth with closed circuit monitors for real time play by play.

[Abagadro]

What are you basing this on? Did they say this during the broadcast or is it written about somewhere?

From the Time article:

[ QUOTE ]
ESPN taped the one-month event at Binion's last May, piping the view of the hole cards into tape machines secured by armed guards to prevent cheating. Then they added play-by-play in postproduction.

[/ QUOTE ]

[scrub]

My guess is that the commentary was added in postproduction--some friends of mine and I watched the final table over the webcast, and it was complete bedlam. It seemed like everyone in the broadcast area was pretty disorganized and couldn't see the cards or the players that well. The only commentary for one of the first hands that got flopped out was that "the pot is pushed somewhere, and the button moves..." It would surprise me if ESPN spent the money for sealed closed circuit isolation booths to lay down "live" commentary for an event that was going to be taped and edited extensively anyway...

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand BEFORE that was the one that I really was surprised by his play. Sam F has Ah9c, Jason L has Jd9d. Flop comes 8c8sAc, both check. Turn is the Td (he's now open-ended) and Jason DOESN'T make a play here?
Then, when the last card falls, helping neither one, and Sam bets 100K, does Jason really think a Jack is good here? Sam's pretty aggressive, would have made a move before then with any kind of hand... so is Jason reading SF for a total steal here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The final board was 88ATT, so they both could easily have been playing the board. Jason was hoping to chop.

[Easy E]

[Schmed]

they have 31 NFL year in reviews to show....I mean who isn't going to be watching "The Bengals 2002"