Patience or aggression

[J.R.]

UB $30 NL holdem tournament. 109 started, down to 23, 20 get paid, but no real money until 12th.

I recently moved to this table, in the 5 hands so far there has been some limping and post flop play. 150-300 blinds (no ante), you have 1835 (21st place) after posting the small blind. Folded to the button who makes it 900. Button has me covered (2000 after the raise), as does the big blind (3500). You have A9s. I thought this was fold or all-in? Which one is better?

If you think fold, at what stack size does this become an easy all-in, 1200?

If you chose a fold, how big an ace do you need to go all-in with the stack sizes as they were?

I appreciate your comments, as I have had difficulty determining when desperation is around the corner, when I have time to wait, and when the pot size and my hand is too favorable a mix to pass up. I went all-in here and instantly regretted it. I think I saw my hand and decided I would make a move without considering:

1) That the button raised half my stack,
2) I could not get the button to fold for roughly 900 more,
3) I had time to wait for a better situation where I could put the decision to someone else,
4) The bubble was close, and
5) I overvalued my hand's strength, especially against a raise.

[Whitey]

IMO your all-in isn't a terrible play but obviously you are gambling that the button is on a steal or raising with less than he normally would due to position(does this still constitute stealing??)

Also I dont think he has an automatic call,he may feel that getting into the money is more important than you do.
The other problem is that there is a player to follow you who may have a hand,but again your all-in is over half his stack so if he does call your probably beat.However he wont be calling with a hand thats similar to yours,he would have to have AK minimum IMO.

The next thing to consider is how long you can wait to make a move,and I think you could go at least another orbit(if not 2)to find a better hand.
I have recently found myself the short stack late on and gone on to make the final table with a reasonable stack due to waiting until I can be the aggressor and finding a little bit of luck at the right time.
You may feel that your re-raise IS making you the aggressor and a fold from the button or the fact his hand could be worse than yours makes it a worth while play.

[eMarkM]

You have 1835 with blinds of 150/300. Assuming the blinds aren't going up in the next couple minutes it means you have 4 rounds left before you're blinded out. Ok, let's say 3 if the blinds are going to increase soon. You have plenty of time yet to make a move and in that time you make actually move into the money.

This is the time for patience. I'd fold here since you're not in immediate danger of blinding out. You'd much rather be the first one raising then reacting to another's opening bet. Gap Concept and all. He could easily have you dominated. Dump it and wait for a better hand/better steal opportunity.

Also, when you get near the bubble and are a bubble boy candidate in these online tourneys, it is very important to keep tabs on the other smaller stacks. Keep their tables open and if you see one of them all-in, pass on steal attempts/marginable situations until you see the result.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

One thing you touched on that's most important here is that once someone bets a certain % of their stack, they're not folding for the rest of it. I often will bet around half my stack at late stages of tourneys, in order to discourage people from making moves on me, because they know I'll call a reraise.

Example:

Three left. Blinds 100-200, 25 ante. I have A9s on the button. My stack is 2000. I might very well raise 1000 here. Anyone who reraises me has to realize that I will absolutely call, otherwise I would not have risked so much of my stack. Now of course I won't do this unless I hold a hand that I am willing to go all in with. I have found the tactic to be very successful overall. Of course once in a while I do get busted this way, but you have to make stands in no limit, and can't always wait for the nuts to do it.

There was no way your reraising all in was going to buy you that pot, so you must decide if you like your chances hot and cold against your opponent before you do it. Other people may not have thought it out the way I have here, but virtually no one will bet half their stack (at such a late stage) then fold to a raise.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I think all of us will have many more situations to face where we are the short stack than when we are the chip leader, which makes discussion of these situations so important. Also, understanding which hands play best hot and cold is of paramount importance when you have to go all in preflop.

al

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Also, when you get near the bubble and are a bubble boy candidate in these online tourneys, it is very important to keep tabs on the other smaller stacks. Keep their tables open and if you see one of them all-in, pass on steal attempts/marginable situations until you see the result.

This is an excellent point. Part of the complexity of a NL tournament is that some of what factors into a good or bad decision takes place outside the play at your table. I made a bad decision last night in the 'Stars $20 + 2 NLHE, because I failed to realize that despite my less than 10 BB stack, more than half the field remaining were on shorter stacks. Had I checked the list of tables prior to acting, I might have mucked my TT on the button rather than challenging the big stack at my table to a coin flip.

Even though I cashed, I think I failed to give myself a better opportunity to move up the ladder.

[Whitey]

I agree with you that no-one will fold when they have already raised half there stack,however that is not the case in this instance.

The button has raised 3xBB which is slightly less than a 3rd of his stack,its by no means an obvious steal but it is possible that an all in reraise will take the pot uncontested.

ps.I have read alot of your posts and value your opinion so no offence intended. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Copernicus]

KofM's point is the reason why I think posting median stack as well as average stack would be helpful, unless you can get your exact standings information like you can in Stars by double clicking on your name in the participants list, which will give you your exact position. I'm not sure if other sites give you that detail.

If the button is potentially on a steal Ive come to like 20s better than Ax or Axs for a desperation call. I think theres time to wait in this one.

[storm_madden]

I'd fold. I just feel you have time to find a better spot, or fold into the money while waiting.

This is thought provoking. I've played about 2000 single table tournaments in the last year, and I think I suck at big tournaments now because of it. Partly because in situations like this I think my satelite mindset makes me do goofy stuff. I just don't have a feel of when to try to double up in a big tournament. It's hard to play full ring games, shorthanded games, small tournaments, big tournaments, headsup, limit, no limit, etc. and make the necessary adjustments in the different games.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I guess I got off on the topic a little and didn't notice the raiser hadn't quite put 1/2 of his stack in. Thanks for pointing it out tho, it means it's not as clear cut as I might have made it seem. However, my stance on the general issues I discussed won't really change, but the original problem in this thread might be a little foggier than you'd think by reading my response.

No offense taken. It's never a problem to have something I missed pointed out, especially when done politely. I'll admit if I was wrong.

In the case of the raiser's 3x the BB being 1/3 of his own stack, it would of course help to know something about the raiser. This usually won't happen tho in a tourney, especially not an online one. In that case we would revert to his relative chip position, how close/far to the money it is, and his position in the betting order for that round. In EP I would think he'd call if you put him in for his other 2/3. In middle or late perhaps the chance of of his calling an all-in reraise would go down. As it gets closer to the bubble, I'd tend to think he's NOT taking chances with a weak hand that he won't call a reraise of. As his relative stack size goes down, again, he's more likely to call a reraise as well.

al

[sam h]

People will tend to fold a little more in this situation. But not for good reason. The effective stack is what matters, and the effective stack is around 2000 at the beginning of the hand. So he's put in 45% already.

[J.R.]

My opponent took forever, during which time I wished I could recall me bet. He finally called, and turned over AQo. I am surprised he took so long with that hand. No help and I was done. I had time to wait and put a more difficult decision to someone else, as well as to wait and see if anyone else was stricken with the need to make an impetuous move. My opponent was getting over 3-1 (3135 - 935), so it should have been an easy call with AQo, and even marginal hands have a tough time laying down given the pot size. Oh well, thanks for you thoughts.