One hand, two questions

[Aaron W.]

First hand of the session ($.50/$1), I get dealt AK in the BB. 5 callers and then the button raises, driving out the SB.

Question 1: Three bet here, right? I've got a powerful hand and I want them to put money in the pot now while I'm pretty sure I'm ahead. Part of me wants to argue that making the pot huge now isn't so good because people will be able to chase their hands, and this play takes away a check-raise on the flop if I get an A or K, but that argument doesn't sit as well with me as the first.

So I three-bet and get called by three of the limpers and the button.

Flop is Ks Qd 2d. I have no diamonds

Question 2: Bet out or go for a check-raise? I chose to bet out and hope to be raised so that I can three-bet. Nobody with a diamond or straight draw is going to be leaving this pot as it's already huge, so now I just fire away and hope that no draws come.

The rest of the hand was fun, but I don't have questions about it.

I bet out and get called in 3 places. The turn is Ad, I bet out, get raised, the button calls, and I call.

The river is a 4th diamond, I check, it gets bet and raised and I fold. Turns out the the turn raiser had A5, 5 of diamonds, and the button had JJ, J of diamonds.

[Tosh]

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Question 1: Three bet here, right? I've got a powerful hand and I want them to put money in the pot now while I'm pretty sure I'm ahead. Part of me wants to argue that making the pot huge now isn't so good because people will be able to chase their hands, and this play takes away a check-raise on the flop if I get an A or K, but that argument doesn't sit as well with me as the first.

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You probably want to 3 bet in the hope that a couple of those 5 limpers will fold.

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Flop is Ks Qd 2d. I have no diamonds

Question 2: Bet out or go for a check-raise? I chose to bet out and hope to be raised so that I can three-bet. Nobody with a diamond or straight draw is going to be leaving this pot as it's already huge, so now I just fire away and hope that no draws come.

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Well you were the preflop 3 bettor so there is a possibility they won't bet unless they have a stronger hand than yours. For example its possible a player with KJ will just check it round too. Bet it here.

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I bet out and get called in 3 places. The turn is Ad, I bet out, get raised, the button calls, and I call.


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You should be 3 betting that turn.

[Aaron W.]

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You should be 3 betting that turn.

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You're right. A large number of hands would raise that are still losing to top two pair, even though both the straight and the flush are out there. At the time, the cold call on the button scared me into thinking he was trying to be fancy with a set (QQ or KK). I'm pretty sure I win more than 1/3 of the time, especially because I still have 4 outs if I am behind.

[me454555]

1) Always 3 bet the flop. Encouraging people to draw isnt the worst thing in the world. Just remember that even though they have the odds to call, they will still miss their hand the majority of time.

2) To check raise or not to check raise? Theres 13.5 bets in the pot pre flop. Betting out makes the pot odds 14.5:1 giving just about any drawing hand the proper odds to draw. By chekcraising, you can probobly force at least 1 opponent to put in 2 bets cold cutting their odds down to about 9:1. In this situation its better to bet out because the pot is so huge that most drawing hands can call either 1 or 2 bets cold.

You might want to reconsider betting out on the turn b/c you were first to act and there is both a flush and strait draw on the board. The only reasonable hand you can beat at this point is KQ so checking and folding might not be such a bad idea here.

[asdf1234]

I don't think I'm checking and folding top two on the turn unless there's some very heavy resistance. That would be the definition of weak tight. Besides, you could fill on the river even if you are losing right now.

By the way, you probably shouldn't assume that .50/1.00 players are on good draws.

[me454555]

Definition of weak tight? The preflop 3 bet means that even in .50/1.00 games, most of the worse hands would have to fold or call 2 bets cold. I can't really see anyone playing Axo or other weak hands that most low limit player play for 3 bets pre flop. But lets just say that someone played Ax or even Kx preflop, your raise on the river should get anyone on Ax out because no ace hit, theres a flush draw on the board, and there was a lot of heavy betting early. You might be lucky and get a Kx to come along for the ride but with the aggressive betting pre flop I doubt it.

On the turn, you now have to worry about not 1 but 2 draws as well as pocket As Ks Qs and 2s. Anyone w/Kx wouldnt bet this out on this hand b/c of the Ace on the board. You have to assume your behind in the hand at this point.

Calling isnt a bad option because you could fill up on the river but betting out imho just doesnt make sense. I'd call 1 bet cold but if it got raised to 2 I'd have to fold because I don't have the correct pot odds to draw.

[Aaron W.]

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2) To check raise or not to check raise? Theres 13.5 bets in the pot pre flop. Betting out makes the pot odds 14.5:1 giving just about any drawing hand the proper odds to draw. By chekcraising, you can probobly force at least 1 opponent to put in 2 bets cold cutting their odds down to about 9:1. In this situation its better to bet out because the pot is so huge that most drawing hands can call either 1 or 2 bets cold.

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The problem with the check-raise is that I'm not sure that the button will bet it. Even AQ might be timid about betting because of the king on the flop. And giving a free card is a complete disaster.

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The only reasonable hand you can beat at this point is KQ so checking and folding might not be such a bad idea here.

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"Reasonable" is an interesting word. I've learned that most other people playing the game have a much different conception of what it means than I do. Folding here is very weak because I have a draw to the near-nuts if either A or K falls (If a K falls, I can still lose to a very poorly played AA, but that's it). The pot is huge and I have implied odds because I'm going to collect some (if not a whole lot) when the A or K comes.

What 'reasonable' hands are they playing? A5, on this one. I wouldn't be surprised to see KJ or KT, hoping to get the straight, and even J9 isn't out of the question.

[ropey]

3-betting here is not an option...there are far too many ways that you are most likely beat. The raise is a good indicator of this; pay attention when somebody raises you and what they are likely raising you with.

-ropey

[me454555]

yeah, checking and calling is probobly better than folding b/c you have the nut draw and pot odds to do so.

Check raising the flop is always very risky b/c you risk giving a free card to the drawers if its checked around. I like to just bet out in those situations just like you did.

[Aaron W.]

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3-betting here is not an option...there are far too many ways that you are most likely beat. The raise is a good indicator of this

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I started to argue this way, too. But after I tried, I realized how wrong it is. There are ways that I'm beat, but given the action, there are ways I'm still far ahead. Because of the limit, you should not (CANNOT) put people on decent hands just because they raise once (in fact, even if they cap it!). Since it's a three way pot, I must be ahead only about 1/3 of the time to make money on stuff flying into the pot on the turn. Combine this with the fact that if I am behind AND I catch a full house, I'm almost certainly going to be paid off for multiple bets. Because of this, I only need to be ahead less than 1/3 of the time. I'd much rather save my money on the river by check-calling or even check-folding (as I did here) rather than lose money on the turn by not making that J of diamonds pay dearly for his less than second pair on the flop turning into a flush (ie, next time, I hope I"ll get it right).

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pay attention when somebody raises you and what they are likely raising you with.

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Believe me... I knew that the raiser probably was on crap. This wasn't the first time he bet/raised with ace-no-kicker after calling one/two/three bets on the flop and preflop. I didn't say this before because it was after I folded, but he three-bet with his mighty 5-high flush. My concern was that the button tried to be fancy with QQ or KK on the flop, then was kicking himself when the turn brought the straight and the flush.