20-40 at the Taj...Positional Struggle

[Jeffage]

I had a good weekend at Taj, but this one hand was very interesting to me. 20-40 game just started with the traditional mix of loose and solid players. I have Q /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. I don't know the players. One player limps, and an Asian lady raises. All fold to me, I call, limper calls. Flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif giving me an open ender and a running flush draw, as well as an overcard. I decide to checkraise in this short pot thinking I may be able to win this one without making my hand if necessary (comments?). I check, limper checks, she bets, I checkraise, limper folds. Now she 3-bets. Not what I wanted. But ok, I call. Anyone 4-bet and lead? If you just call, what's your plan for the turn? The turn is the 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check (I hate this) and she checks. The river is another offsuit brick. I'm getting more than 6-1 on a river bluff, but is it worth it...will AK/AQ fold enough here? What I did, and the results to follow...I would appreciate opinions on the hand.

Thanks,
Jeff

[B K]

As soon as she checks the turn, bet the river like you missed the check-raise. Overcards will lay down more often, especially in a new game when the player doesn't know you. Play tends to be tighter at new tables.

[Jeff V]

Ah the terribleousness /images/graemlins/mad.gif of being out of position. I would have really wished I 4 bet and led the turn, but probably wouldn't have. A river bet is the only chance you have to win this pot, and getting 6 to 1 I like your chances.

[sam h]

Jeff,

I would take a shot on the river. It was a rainbow flop, making it less likely that you checkraised on a draw. I think most asian ladies are going to fold overcards more than one in six times here.

Because its a rainbow flop and a female player, I probable would not four bet the flop. Not only are you going to be up against an overpair or better in most circumstances here, there will be times when the opponent has flopped really big and will raise the turn, causing you to pay much more than you really want for this draw.

[elysium]

hi jeff
pre-flop, i think there is a slim chance of getting heads up with a raise. i would take that chance and reraise.

on the flop, had you reraised pre-flop, whether you got heads up or not, you must bet out.

the problem in this hand occurs, in my opinion, on the pre-flop when you fail to reraise. it's an intuitive thing, but it looks like you've decided early on that you can fold out these opponents. having done so, you must represent a strong hand at some point, or manipulate the pot size. well, having already been raised, your efforts to manipulate the pot size are severely hampered, therefore, knowing this in combination with having decided to fold, you must show strength and fold out your opponents by having your opponents base their fold on the way in which you played your hand. now i'm not exactly grammatically correct, but i think you get the point plu-perfect-ishly.

so after the pot has been raised, tend to reraise. the idea here is that you aren't going to be able to manipulate the pot much and get the fold by making a call incorrect odds-wise. so that necessarily means that you want to get the fold not by math, but by how you play your hand.

after understanding this concept to at least a primative level, you begin to realize that immediately 3 betting pre-flop is correct when you have decided to go for the fold, and to do so early. but pre-flop, you call and don't reraise. that's a mistake here. why? because now you must show strength on the last remaining cheap round, the flop. well, that means you must check-raise. the reason you check-raise is to show strength. but wait, somewhere in this mix, before the turn, you must back-down to a bet; kinda SP a little. what to do?

the problem with this hand occurs pre-flop. if you decided that you were going for the fold rather than completion, you had every last single bit of info needed before you voluntarily entered the hand to make a pre-flop decision on whether or not to raise. obviously whether the SP follow through.....and that's another thing. we might not be plu-perfect, but at least let's get this right. i can understand not showing early strength on the pre-flop in an unraised. then, you may want to get the fold by keeping the pot small and using turn leverage. that's fine. but once you lose turn leverage pre-flop, not grammatically correct but you should then plan the flop bet, raise, call; and the turn check-raise.

should you ever check-call the flop after the pre-flop has been raised in a go for fold? no, i don't think you should.
i think you should reserve the flop check-call for pot size manipulation opportunities and for containing flop aggressors who are aggressive on the flop, but who tend to fold on the turn. now interestingly, on the flop, you might want to check-call an opponent with this tendancy, even though doing so will not make it incorrect to call your turn bet because of a pre-flop raise. when you do so, he may intuitively reduce the size of the pot giving you a better chance to fold him.

but getting back to what to do; on the flop here, you should bet, and if raised call. on the turn, if you improve, bet out; if you don't improve, check-raise. again this is how you should play in a go for fold.

in a going for completion type game, you should tend to call pre-flop from EP in this situation and bet and call and check-call. that's pretty basic.

you chose to go for the fold. those are complex. you must have a specific strategy based upon whether the pre-flop was raised or not. unless you have such a strategy, it's better to simply go for the completion. if however, your opponent exhibits a tell indicating weakness, then revert back to going for the fold. what did you do here......? hmmmmm.

well, you have to be careful when estimating pot size. after the pre-flop is raised, some opponent types will make intuitive assessments on pot size. i always add a few bucks more into the pot in these type calculations.

let's see here.......ok. well you check-raised. very hither and yon jeff.

nope....oh look at this. "not what i wanted , but ok.". my gosh, you're raising for value. this is precious.

man jeff, no tickie no shirtie on this one. you ran into a card shark. yeah, the water's warm but full of sharks. you won this hand, but you're in need of some serious study time here. your river bluff worked out well for you because of that turn check by the way. that saved your back-side because she was taking you to the cleaners. you've got to start controling your table here a little jeff, and if you don't have a plan of action, these sharks will reduce you down to these long shot bluffs time after time. she had you all the way.

[Tyler Durden]

I don't know what "no tickie no shirtie" means but it sounds cool and I'd love to hear what the heck it means.

[ALL1N]

Elysium.

I strongly disagree with the reraise preflop. Your strategy seems based upon winning the pot any way you know how, but we know that this is not necessarily good poker, especially when applied at the start of a hand.

QTs is not a hand you want to play from the BB either headsup or 3-way unless you hit the flop. When you hit a pair it will often be good, and you can check-raise or lead at will, but your value in a hand when you don't pair or flop a draw is horrible; I mean honestly, you've got fricken Q-high! 3-Betting does increase your value in the hand from the flop's perspective, but the same could be said for J4. QTs just doesn't win enough hands to warrant this aggressive play.

ALL1N

[Philuva]

I think I would bet the river.

It is hard to see the draw you are on when you check-raise the flop. From her persective, it looks like you have a J and are in fear of an overpair or her kicker.

Also, given she checked the turn, it might show some passiveness on her part, leading her to fold AK or AQ maybe more so than most people.

I don't like the flop 4-bet and turn lead. That is an expensive way to play a draw when your opponent has shown so much strength up to that point.

I think you played it fine and I would bet the river.

Hi Jeff,

Y'know I'm just a LL player and this maybe beyond the scope of my conceptual abilities. But I'll take a shot.

Having no experience in playing 15-30 much less 20-40, I may not be aggressive enough to check-raise with an open ender from the big blind, unless I have established an image that my value-betting works with positive results. That being said, I may have led out on the flop, call a raise, and check-call the turn.

OTOH, I think your only chance of winning this hand is to bet out and fold to a raise. Hopefully she's capable of folding her AK/AQ.

[Mike Gallo]

man jeff, no tickie no shirtie on this one.

Elysium,

Show some class. Just because Jeffs main opponent came from asian descent doesnt mean you should use that line.

The line means no dry cleaning ticket no pickup of goods. In my day its how people made fun of asians.

People usually stereo type asians of owning dry cleaners and laundomats.

I think you made a way out of line comment. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Michael

[ML4L]

Hey Jeffage,

Depending on your (and her) table image, I would 4-bet the flop and lead the turn. I'm assuming that her flop bet means nothing to you and your flop raise means nothing to her. If her 3-bet means that she's not messing around (or if your check-raise should be respected based on your past play), check-call mode is fine.

My first impression was that betting the river was a terrible idea, but if she is aggressive, her play is consistent with KQ and QT. So, if she isn't one to bluff-raise the river, I would go ahead and bet, even though most players would call with AK/AQ every time.

ML4L

[elysium]

hi m.g.
no m.g., that's not quite what i meant. i remembered only that jeff's opponent was female, i did not commit the oriental part to memory; i only remember female. i haven't as of yet even re-reviewed jeff's thread. but i do remember reading a thread referencing the opponent's heritage and i remember oriental. and a little thing was going on, i felt a little tinge-like thingie when you almost remember something but then don't quite remember it, and i think i was almost making the tickie shirtie connection, linking it to the faint oriental-ish almost memory, but gosh m.g., it never materialized. it felt like i had a little wisp on my hair, and i'm sure that it was the connection there, but it never grounded. i just went on. but i almost had something there, and it was orientalie, but it got away. if i made the connection, i surely would have erased.

no m.g., i was telling jeff that he was being taken to the cleaners. and i know what you mean. i remember hearing that one time in my life. and i remember having whoever it was that told me that have to explain that it sounded oriental, which coming from the person who told me it didn't because he had a heavy new england accent. the way he said it was, 'na tehckie/ na shaatie'.

and i forgot about it. but one day i decided to have the cleaners do my laundry instead of myself. and it was owned by orientals. and i went back the next day to pick up my laundry, and i had the money; it was like a 10 bucks; but me? a ticket? i had trouble finding wallet with all the the mess. i was living by myself at the time. whew....what a mess. well, she said it. i didn't care. i just wanted my crummy laundry back for crying out loud. i had to drive all the way back home to get it too. racial slurs? on that day, i think you would have heard a few racial slurs. as for me, i just wanted my laundry back.

they really do say that though. but no, i was implying jeff being taken to the cleaners. the oriental part, no i wasn't thinking about that. but i had a wispy feeling. if i had thought about it further i may have spotted the slur. it got away from me on this one.

i'd say you're being paranoid, but i'm paranoid about some of this stuff too. and i don't like it when they say i'm paranoid. and i'm from miami. we aren't oriental oriented. here it's the cubans. you can't say anything bananaie. no bananas. plantains m.g. it's plantains over here.

[Mike Gallo]

Dude,

After that post, you can write whatever you want. I still havent stopped laughing.

i'd say you're being paranoid, but i'm paranoid about some of this stuff too.

Good observation. You write some funny stuff.

Michael /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jeffage]

Hey folks...thanks for the responses. I did bet the river, but unfortunately she called and showed AK to beat my Queen high. I still think my bet on the end was correct, but I am not totally sure. See, when she checks the turn, I thought in my head that she expects me to bet the river no matter what and plans to call with Ace high. I guess she may fold one time in six on the end, but with that betting pattern I'm not sure...why go to the trouble of 3-betting the flop and checking the turn unless u were on precisely overcards? But the thing is, she probably knows her check would induce me to bet with any two cards so she was planning on calling. I dunno, I still like my bet though in case she folds due to the pot size. I think the idea of 4-betting and leading is results oriented somewhat and would probably be an expensive practice if you pressed every draw like that in this situation. Comments about my play but also about how she played it would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

[Paluka]

Hey Jeffage-

I think you completely understood what was going on with this hand. You knew it had to be correct to bet the river, but you also knew that she checked the turn intending to call your bet. So that leaves only one solution- checkraise the turn, not the flop. That might even get an extra near-dead small bet from the limper into the pot.