Why is it?

Why is it that sometimes, I and many other poker players are unable to control their emotions at the poker table. I'm not talking about getting beat and then getting upset. I'm talking about this..........


You raise before the flop with KK, a few have cold called as usual and now the flop comes out.


K 9 2 rainbow.


How come is it that some of us begin to tremble when we reach for our chips to bet at this pot?

Why is that some of us get red in the face?

Why is that our body is free flowing at this point, i.e, you bet and your motion is as free flowing as ever, you have no worries in the world?


In what other light can we look at this whereas, your mind is on something else, trying not to give away any tells?

How do you do it?


Have you even thought about this aspect in your game?

I dunno, I sort of like to give off tells sometimes. Just to see if someone might pick up on it? Try inventing a reverse tell and use it when you flop that top set.


Or even better, you can just not worry about it. That's what I usually do.

yes, exactly, you want to invent a reverse tell, but you don't want it to be an obvious reverse tell......


you also went on to say, to just not worry about it? How can this be? How can you just not worry about it?

I think that intentionally sending reverse tells is a losing tactic in the long run. The best way is to truly feel the same way inside while betting AQ into a K-x-x flop, and betting KK into a K-x-x flop.


Sounds impossible, and it pretty much is unless you play a lot. But what we're talking about here in energy appropriation. We can spend our energies devising feeble tactics while emotionally strung out. Or we can point our energies directly at the goal of remaining emotionally aloof. I work on that second thing, supported by my unwavering belief that, hand after hand, year after year, sending no information is better than sending contrived information. And the only way to truly send no information is to have no information to send, as in, detatched, indifferent.


Tommy

ive lost many times in this type of situation, so im waiting til showdown to drag the chips. you have a fantastic hand, and your already stacking the chips subconciously. thats one way to explain it.


once you get every great hand cracked a couple times, it jades you a little on the great flops.


or at least thats how it is with me.


some thoughts..


b

The trembling that you experience when you make a big hand is caused by a release of tension. It's involuntary, so there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. With experience, this should go away. As Tommy says, the key is indifference. BTW, the last time I had KK on a K9x board, KTo made a runner-runner straight to run me down. Top set is not a hand I get excited about. Quads is.

I'll tell you why, but it may not do much good. It all comes down to the fear of death. You'll be working on that your whole life. Let me translate to the particular situation: All fear is related to the fear of losing something, death being the ultimate loss. When you see KK GET MATCHED TO A K ON THE FLOP, the trembling fear you feel is the potential loss of losing something you don't even have yet (this particular hand)! Try and understand that your fear of loss is ruling you so much that you are fearing losing something you don't even have yet (we all do it to some extent). When you grasp the futileness of doing that, you'll begin to tame your fear of death, or loss.

in previous message, "(This particular hand) should be (This particular POT)

If your temperament is such that you can just not put emphasis on what tells you are giving off, that's when you're just not worried about it.


Would you overly worry about giving off tells while playing Monopoly or chess? (I hope you would not). It's not something that's especially on my mind while playing.


But sometimes I remember something about the way I played a previous hand I was bluffing. Like how did I spin or bounce my lucky chip that time. And then when I flop top set, I adopt the same mannerisms. And I'll hope someone was watching. But probably noone ever is.

Don't you think sending contrived info adds to the poker? And in the limit game, there's often not that much 'poker' to start with. Do you know what I mean?

"Don't you think sending contrived info adds to the poker? And in the limit game, there's often not that much 'poker' to start with. Do you know what I mean?"


I think I do. The jive, the psych, the game being on. Like starting up a five-minute conversation on the river at no-limit when one player faces the other's huge bet.


Yes, sending contrived info adds to that. I just don't think it's more profitable than sending none.


Tommy

Many years ago Oswald Jacoby wrote that the signs you described normally mean that someone has a big hand, not that he is bluffing. Mike Caro made the same point in his works on tells. You asked "Why," but most of the discussion has been about what should be done.

The why question refers to excitement, which is one of the reasons we gamble. We ENJOY those physical reactions. Dr. Othmer, a very good psychiatrist, has written about this issue. Sorry, but I can't think of a specific reference off-hand. You might write him c/o the publisher of the excellent book he wrote with his brother, "Elements of 7 card stud." The studies of pathological gamblers are also relevant to the why issue. They are literally "hooked" on these physical reactions. They need that "kick" so badly that they are willing to pay an extremely high price to get it.

However, I suspect that you are more interested in the second question: What should you do about it?

Tommy Angelo's suggestions about acting indifferent are more likely to be successful than trying to give off false tells. The fact that you are now giving off true tells clearly suggests that you are not a good actor. Therefore, your attempts to deceive are unlikely to succeed. You may fool a few oblivious people, but players like Tommy will see right through you.

Incidentally, Tommy, when are you coming here?

Alan Schoonmaker

You wrote: "I'll tell you why, but it may not do much good. It all comes down to the fear of death."


I disagree. You will see the symptoms he described in someone with an absolute lock. For example, I can remember seeing someone whose hands were shaking and he stuttered when he had five aces (in California with a bug). You can see it in any casino when people hit jackpots. There are recorded cases of people's having fatal heart attacks when they hit jackpots.


I am not saying that fear will not cause these physical signs and symptoms, but he specifically referred to loss of control when he had a big hand. If he had given an example of a flopped straight flush, would you say it was fear that caused his hands to shake, etc.?


Al Schoonmaker

It still comes down FEAR OF DEATH. Even with a lock, one still has to face the fear of loss. But, how does one face the fear of loss with a lock you might ask. Even when you win, you still have to face the fear of loss. What is it that you are losing when you win? You are losing your status quo, or the state you happen to be in at the time. Whether you're experiencing success, or failure in life, you still must deal with the fear of death, or loss. The more comfortable you can become with the unknown, the more success you will have in life.

Learn to see yourself play. In other words, when you bet (or raise), tell yourself, "I will now watch myself make this bet(raise)". I've found this statement effective in helping me to be detached from what I'm doing, especially in no-limit.


Another useful statement is, "This is only one of thousands of bets that I will be making this year". This will remind you that this hand is ultimately inconsequential.

I think Mikey is experiencing something that is normal for most players who are new to the game or are moving up in stakes. I believe "bernie" eluded to this, but shouldn't Mikey see an improvement the more he plays big hands?


For me, after seeing some of my huge hands get crushed or win big I started to lose the physical symptoms of "fight or flight." I guess for some people that's a bad thing, and they end up moving to a bigger game; but I enjoyed finally being able to think straight while playing a big hand.


CV

When you flop quads are you thinking:


A) "oh god I have quads!! I can't be beat!! good god this is such a big hand!! oh my god!!"


B) "this moron in the 3 seat.. hes going to call me.. hes so damn easy to read"

This and another post have stated that we have to develop perspective, and I agree completely. If we are playing for stakes we can handle, and we've had our share of big hands beaten, our reactions will become less extreme. We'll realize that it's just another hand, and the results are not that big a deal.

However, as Chris pointed out, lots of people WANT those extreme reactions. They need that adrenaline rush or whatever it is. If they can't get it in one game, they'll move to a bigger one. My advice to people who have that need is very simple: You've got a problem, and you'd better get help. I know too many people whose addiction to action has destroyed their lives.

Poker is a game of control, and that control starts with ourselves. If we can't be detached and analytic, if we let our need for action or our fear of action dominate us, we're going to lose, and we can easily lose much more than we can afford.

when i play poker, i try to acheive the zen-like state of emotional aloofness. simply being indifferent in your mannerisms, and actions, and speaking, and words.


this can be acheived by convincing yourself that you have the nuts every single time you bet or raise. then, when you bet, you are always giving off the air of betting the nuts.


or, you can convince yourself you have no idea what cards you have, but the best action is to bet, so you bet. this way, you aren't giving off any information other than the fact that you think a bet is your best course of action. which is already obvious to everybody given that you are in fact betting.

Hey Al,


If the person in question is the competitive type whose primary motivation is to win, and not to simply "get action", wouldn't it be correct for that person to get an adrenaline rush with a big hand, because that it the point in which he has the opportunity fulfill his primary motivation, which is to win?


I think that it can be difficult to differentiate between the "potential pro (TAP)" and the person who simply wants as much action as possible (LAP). I'm sure that the "potential pro" has a little piece of him that simply wants action, while the action oriented person also probably has a small piece of himself that has what it takes to become a pro.


What do you guys think?

You wrote:


If the person in question is the competitive type whose primary motivation is to win, and not to simply "get action", wouldn't it be correct for that person to get an adrenaline rush with a big hand, because that it the point in which he has the opportunity fulfill his primary motivation, which is to win?


I must object to your use of the phrase "correct to get an adrenaline rush." I agree he'll get it, but the danger is that those adrenaline rushes can be so pleasurable that they cause all sorts of problems. You and I have both done stupid things to get that rush, and we have often paid for it at the poker table and in other places.


In fact, that desire for action has caused many, many "potential pros" to remain "wannabees."


I'll agree that we all have little pieces of ourselves that want to go in various directions. The trick is to recognize and control the ones that are pulling us in the wrong direction.