Fold nut flush on paired board w/ heavy action? Put SB on a hand.

[Ulysses]

Great $15-30 game.

Aggressive UTG open-raises. This could be a wide range of hands (ATs, AJ, any pair, KQs, etc.), but it's something pretty good. Loose, super-aggressive CO cold-calls. Solid, overaggressive SB calls. BB has As4s and calls.

Flop Ks 7s 8d

SB checks. BB checks. UTG (PFR) checks. CO bets. SB calls. BB calls. UTG check-raises. CO 3-bets. SB calls. BB calls. UTG 4-bets. CO, SB, and BB call.

Turn (Ks 7s 8d) 8s

SB checks. BB checks. UTG checks. CO bets. SB ponders a bit and calls. BB check-raises. UTG folds. CO calls. SB now 3-bets. BB folds. Good fold? CO calls.

SB bets in the dark.

River (Ks 7s 8d 8s) Ad

CO calls and shows Js9s. What did SB have? Regardless of what SB had, did BB make a good or bad laydown?

[Josh W]

What is an overaggressive SB? Will he make this play with a smaller flush? If there's a decent chance of that, then call down. Big pot.

See, normally I'm more of a fan of big laydowns than most here. But I got a scare the other day. I was in late position w/ Qxd, and flopped two diamonds. On the turn, a diamond came. Early bettor, one caller, I raised, early player called, and the caller threebet. I mucked, **KNOWING** that the caller had the nut flush.

As it turns out, he had the king high flush, so I still made a good laydown. But what if I had the K-high flush, and he played the Q-high flush the same way? Not unreasonable. And not painless.

SB is overaggressive. T9s seems likely/plausible. So does 65s, etc.

I think I call down, and kick myself for not making a fold I know I should make.

Josh

[Josh W]

Four bet the turn.

You said SB is overaggressive. He didn't bet once on the flop. I doubt he had two pair or a set there. I'm guessing he had something like 98s.

Four bet the turn. If you are betting a loser, call for cocktails, and get a delicious libation.

Josh

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You said SB is overaggressive. He didn't bet once on the flop. I doubt he had two pair or a set there. I'm guessing he had something like 98s.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 8s came on the turn, so let's say 56s or 9Ts. Same general idea, right?

Wouldn't you expect SB to ram and jam on the flop w/ big draws like that? Instead, he just called, called, called in between the raisers.

And would a solid player, even an overaggressive one, 3-bet those hands on the turn after all that flop action?

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, just a couple of points to consider.

[Josh W]

Yeah, I do think he'd ram with a big draw. That's why I put him on an 8 instead in my new answer.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
bad lay-down. he misplayed the turn. he has to bet out. his failure to bet out on the turn cost him this hand. i don't think the SB had a boat on the turn, although he likely got there on the river. but when he lays this down, he is in the lead, and the river is bet and call the raise, if the SB did fill on the river. poor turn check ulysses.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
if i didn't know that so many flush cards were out, i would have the SB on a lower flush. and that is still a possible holding. that is how aggressives play draws sometimes. they play draws layed back until they hit. obviously though, you know this player and know that he plays his draws aggressively. i have him on the trips only because i know there is a shortage of flush cards.

[JayCo]

Assuming over-aggressive but not clueless SB, I'll throw A-8 into the mix. I agree he would jam a straight & flush draw like Ts9s or 6s7s.

A8 would mean BB played this a bit conservatively on the flop thinking 2nd pair not likely ahead, but wanted to see where he stood. When the 8 pairs, may be thinking worth a 1-bet extra shot to possibly muscle a flush out of the hand (which he did), and if not, why not push a draw with as many as 10 outs if he is behind?

J

[JayCo]

I'll take a flyer and go with Ad8d for the backdoor flush draw. If this is in a $15-$30 PartyPoker rather than a B&M game against an over-agressive SB, I hate the fold. My "saved" turn & river bets when I've folded knowing my Q or K-high flush is no good have cost me a lot of cash.

[Ulysses]

I was SB.

[Gabe]

QsTs

[FletchJr.]

The only thing that fits in my head is 77.
YOu must of sneaked a peak at BB's hand preflop. and you were just sucking along on the flop. thinking about making the flush draws pay on the expensive street if they didn't hit. When you seen the flush card come on the turn you were really happy cause it put out a boat, and when BB checked you knew he was going for a Check raise.It took you a little while to think what was your best way of extracting the most money out of the hand so you simply called the turn bet so you could 3 bet when you knew the bb was going to CR. then when he did as planned and the Co called you pumped it with your full house.
that's the only thing i could come up with.i know it sounds bizarre but it might be right lol. either that or your "hint" threw me off big time!

[jen]

I agree with Gabe -- QsTs.

[mike l.]

i havent read the results yet, havent found them actually, but this fold is horrifyingly bad.


also bb should checkraise the flop to attempt to add two one pair Ace outs should utg be willing to fold A-better kicker.

[mike l.]

all i can say is if you were full on the turn and you got someone to lay down the nut flush and he wasnt lying so much for your slowplay, it didnt work, shouldve waited for the river to decloak i guess.

does not sound like a good game at all btw. i think i would get eaten alive by players thinking that hard, laying down nut flushes, playing ultra-aggressive, yuck. horrible. you beat games like that for a fortune? wow.

[mike l.]

"YOu must of sneaked a peak at BB's hand preflop."

outstanding observation. looks like quad 8s to me.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that fits in my head is 77.
YOu must of sneaked a peak at BB's hand preflop. and you were just sucking along on the flop. thinking about making the flush draws pay on the expensive street if they didn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perfect except for two things. I didn't peak at BB's hand and I had 88 for quads, not 77.

[ QUOTE ]
When you seen the flush card come on the turn you were really happy cause it put out a boat, and when BB checked you knew he was going for a Check raise.It took you a little while to think what was your best way of extracting the most money out of the hand so you simply called the turn bet so you could 3 bet when you knew the bb was going to CR. then when he did as planned and the Co called you pumped it with your full house.

[/ QUOTE ]
BB seemed very solid and conservative based on his play so far this session. I could only think of two hands he might have that he'd play that way on the flop - a set or a big flush draw. I expected him to bet the turn, though. When he didn't, for a second I thought my read was wrong. So I almost raised the turn, hoping to get a couple of more bets from CO. But then I considered for a second and thought BB must be going for the checkraise, hopefully w/ 77. I was shocked when he folded to the 3-bet after checkraising. When CO showed his hand at showdown, BB commented that he had him beat w/ nut flush and I believe him. I think his fold was terrible, though. I could definitely have something like QTs here. I'm unlikely to have just trip 8s, though. If I wanted to push BB off the best hand because I think I have overaggressive CO beat, I'd just checkraise the turn and confront BB w/ two bets.

[ QUOTE ]
that's the only thing i could come up with.i know it sounds bizarre but it might be right lol. either that or your "hint" threw me off big time!

[/ QUOTE ]
Good work!

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Four bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's close, but quite possibly correct to four bet the turn against me. It's definitely wrong to fold here. I expected BB to 4-bet if he had 77. I wasn't sure if he would call or 4-bet w/ nut flush here (which is what I thought was his most likely holding), but I definitely didn't expect him to fold.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Four bet the turn. If you are betting a loser, call for cocktails, and get a delicious libation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The funny thing is, he bought me a drink right after this hand. He was very happy w/ his laydown and I'm a really fun guy to play poker with.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i havent read the results yet, havent found them actually, but this fold is horrifyingly bad.
.
also bb should checkraise the flop to attempt to add two one pair Ace outs should utg be willing to fold A-better kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on both counts.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
all i can say is if you were full on the turn and you got someone to lay down the nut flush and he wasnt lying so much for your slowplay, it didnt work, shouldve waited for the river to decloak i guess.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the first time I've ever seen this magnitude of a laydown in this game. This was this guy's first time playing here, so I think he gave everyone much more credit than he should have. Unfortunately, this time he was right.

[ QUOTE ]
does not sound like a good game at all btw. i think i would get eaten alive by players thinking that hard, laying down nut flushes, playing ultra-aggressive, yuck. horrible. you beat games like that for a fortune? wow.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong. You'd beat this game anytime. You'd kill it in any of your "relatively tight, playing well" phases.

As I said, this nut flush laydown was unheard of in this game. Normally, a player in that situation would 4-bet and call down after I cap.

Earlier in the session, I went 7 bets on the turn w/ 2nd nut straight vs. top set. Unfortunately, top set filled up on the river. But, of course, most times he won't.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
outstanding observation. looks like quad 8s to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew someone would get it right sooner or later. Of course, if JA Sucker saw this thread, he'd know right away, having played a few sessions w/ me recently.

Quads three sessions in a row now:

NL: A2s / 222 flop
15-30: 66 / TT9-66
15-30: 88 / K78-8x

I can't remember the last time prior to this I had quads - definitely months ago. Weird.

[Ulysses]

I posted results in another reply, but for those of you who don't want to read through all of the posts....

I had 88 for turned quads. I thought BB was going for a checkraise, so I just called the turn, then 3-bet. I was very surprised when he folded.

CO, as I mentioned in the intial post, had J9s. We needed a Ten of spades on the river to give him a straight flush and give me a $50k share of the bad beat jackpot.

This is the second session in a row I've been one card away from the jackpot. I think I'm going to hit the jackpot next time.