Bad play, or bad luck?

[skaboomizzy]

This is in the first 10 hands of a Party NL $5+1 SNG. The victim in this case is me, in 6th or MP in this hand. I'm holding 10d, Qd. UTG folds, UTG+1 calls (for 15). UTG+2 calls. I'm in middle, and I call. To my left calls, next two fold, SB folds, BB checks.

So now it's a five-handed pot with everyone limping in for the cost of the big blind. I'm 4th to speak after the flop with 10d and Qd.

Flop: 4d, Jd, Ad

At this point I figure I'm the nuts with my flush unless someone has K-x suited diamonds. I'm guessing I tried to get a little too cute here....

check, check, check to me. I bet the minimum 15 and get two callers to the turn... the player to my left and two after him.

Turn [4d, Jd, Ad] Ac

Right now I'm quivering with glee becacuse I'm hoping that if someone is holding a third A they'll go against my flush. Check over to my right who bets 30, I raise to 60, to my left folds, then it's back to my right who calls for 60.

River [4d, Jd, Ad, Ac] Kc

It's heads-up now, and my opponent bets 125. I raise to 250, which is then re-raised to 375. I still figure my flush is the nuts, holding the 10 and Q. Right here my bravado kicks in, and I announce in chat "you BETTER have A-K, or you're toast" and go all in for my remaining 710. My opponent calls for his remaining chips (which still leaves me barely alive in a loss).

He showed Kd 9d to beat me out of the pot with my Qd 10d.

I'd love to hear advice on how I should've played this hand... hope the situation is clear enough.

[Inthacup]

Right here my bravado kicks in, and I announce in chat "you BETTER have A-K, or you're toast" and go all in for my remaining 710.

You probably shouldn't do this. All you're doing is gloating, which, not only is poor form, but gives your players information as well. Keep it to yourself and yell it to the monitor or something.

I think you were destined to lose this hand. You should have made a bigger move on the turn IMO.

Finally, why play in 5+1 tourneys? The rake is twice as bad at that limit than at any at any other tourney limit. As soon as your bankroll can handle it, move up to 10+1 tourneys. Hope this helps.


Cup

[skaboomizzy]

Yeah, I know it's bad form to do that and I usually don't. Just got caught up in the moment, I guess... it was a pretty chatty table to begin with so nobody took it personally.

And if my job interview goes well enough this Monday (please please please), I'll have a little more money to invest so I can move up to $10+1 there and move to $1/$2 in the ring games. IF UB ever gets their act together I can start getting more active there, too.

[Louie Landale]

Pairing the board when you have a flush should be very "erksome" not "gleeful"; especially since you are willing to risk your entire stack on a small pot with your non-nut flush.

You are not thinking about what the opponent can possibly have. He bet the turn representing 3 Aces and you raise representing that you can beat 3 Aces; say you have AQ. No he bets a bunch on the river. Now what hand can he have or made that can beat AQ that cannot beat your flush? A small flush maybe.

You have no reason to slow-play. The only hands that they cannot call on the flop but CAN call a big bet on the turn are [1] a straight, [2] and hands drawing to beat you. In limit, if someone outdraws you 15% of the time you lose 3bb. In NL if someone outdraws you 15% of the time you lose your entire stack. The risk-reward ratio is too high.

"Slow-Playing" in NL is when you [1] have top-full house or better, or [2] if you figure someone will try to steal it if you check, or [3] you can lay your hand down later if you ARE outdrawn.

Both you and the guy who flopped the big flush should not be playing no limit.

- Louie

[skaboomizzy]

Well, that's why I'm playing small games. My copies of HEP and HEPFAP got here this week (after this hand... too bad for me!) so I've been reading through it and just trying to incorporate one or two things at a time into my thinking. The game already seems to "open up" to me just a little, so I'm seeing some more things... including what an absolute bonehead play this was.

I've since been sticking primarily to the limit SNGs at Party (on the rare occassions I can find one) and have done pretty well at the $10+1 level. Hopefully I can get some good experience from this and try to apply a little more of what I've been reading in the books and here. Believe me, I know I've got a LOT to learn.

[RockLobster]

Hi skaboomizzy--

Nice post.

The other replies seem to nail the 2 things that I wanted to point out:
- Don't chat during the hand like you did
- Don't be happy when the board pairs and you're holding a flush (esp. a paired Ace, yikes!)

Other than that, I wanted to suggest that you consider reading Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em", it's an easier first read than HEPFAP.

Take care!

[Cigwin]

Rock,

I have The complete book of hold em poker by Gary Carson, Sklansky's HE and Poker Theory. I was going to get HEPFAP next. Do you recommend that or should I get Lee Jones' book?

[RockLobster]

Hi Den--

I can tell you that I bought TOP & HEPFAP about the same time. I really liked TOP, but found HEPFAP to be a tough read at first. I then bought Lee Jones' WLLHE and got a lot out of it.

I now appreciate HEPFAP much more (after 50,000 online hands and a few re-reads).

I hate to say that THIS or THAT is the RIGHT ORDER of books to read. For me, I got a lot more out of WLLHE when starting out.

I hope this helps, take care--

[Ilovephysics]

Cigwin,

I recently bought Lee Jones book after owning HEPFAP for several months... Basically everything you can gleen from Lee Jones' book, you can also gleen from HEPFAP... That I'm fairly sure to be true...

However, most beginning hold-em concepts for lower-limits aren't as obviously spelled out for most people in HEPFAP as in Jones' book... so that's where Lee Jones book may have been a better 'first read' or 'second read', but after about 5-10 times through HEPFAP and some musings on twoplustwo, I think you pretty much know most of everything Lee Jones' book has to offer... it probably just takes a few additional **careful** reads of HEPFAP... whether you practice it or not is different question... Pretty much every 'advanced' play in HEPFAP comes with some form of a caveat regarding how/conditions/etc. it is 'supposed to work' against good players... most people (myself included) often choose to ignore a lot of these caveats for home and low-limit games, which is where HEPFAP can be a very **costly** read if you start to get too filled with advanced ideas that make you believe you are better than other players.... and simply believing that 'knowing' these types of plays and not applying them correctly makes you better... hehe.

However, I'd still recommend Jones' book... just see if you can get the price at under $20 if you already own those other books.

[Cigwin]

Thanks to you and Rock. I probably will get Lee Jones' book. I definitely need to better understand the basics before the advanced.