Two 10/20 KK hands---when (if at all) would you lay down?

[34TheTruth34]

Hand One.

My first orbit around the table and I only know like 3 players, only one of which is in this hand. 4 limpers and I raise on the button with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Flop T /images/graemlins/spade.gif-8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif-3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Checked to me, I bet and get 3 callers: The SB who plays any two suited, a LMP player who I have no read on yet (younger early twenties kid) and a LP lady who apprears to play almost any two cards.

Turn 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks, and out of nowhere the LMP player bets into me. The late position lady folds. My first thought is that if he had an eight, he would probably check-raise. I'm struggling to put him on a hand he would play this way. I decide to call. This is where I get into trouble a lot---this is probably a raise or fold situation, right??? Anyway, I just called. The SB just called, confirming my read that he's waiting for a diamond. This would have been a great time to raise if he had an eight.

River T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, putting two pair on the board. SB checks, LMP player bets. I look at the small blind who is clearly ready to fold. I call. SB mucks.


Hand Two.

UTG folds and I open raise with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif and get 2 callers and the BB plays. Four way action.

Flop T /images/graemlins/club.gif- 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif-4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet and get two callers, both older men who I haven't played with before, but who appear to be regulars (This hand was at Foxwoods, where I am new to the 10/20).

River T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, the worst possible card for my hand. I grit my teeth and bet. First player folds and the second raises me. I get ready to auto-muck bullet fold Tommy Angelo-style, when I get the same feeling I got from the hand above, like my hand may still be good. I would think he would have raised me on the flop if he had a ten or a diamond. I decide to call, worried that I may be drawing dead.

River Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Four flush on board! I check, not quite sure what I intend to do if he bets.

Comments? In both hands I based my decision to call on the fact that I just "felt" like I was trying to be pushed off of the hand? How would you guys have played these? Results later.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
In both hands I based my decision to call on the fact that I just "felt" like I was trying to be pushed off of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't read through the hands, but I did skim the post and this comment jumped out at me.

When I get a strong feeling that this is the case, I pretty consistently do the same thing. Raise. Now, it may or may not be the most +EV move at that very moment. Maybe it lets them muck a hand that they would have bluffed with again. Maybe they re-raise and you have to call down. But I think whatever you might lose in EV in this hand is more than made up for in future hands when they yield pots to your aggression or call down instead of making a thin value raise.

[M.B.E.]

Hand 1 I think you played fine. There's no way you can fold your pocket kings on either the turn or the river (against this unknown player). I don't think you can raise the turn either; for one thing your opponent won't put you on an 8 since you raised preflop.

Hand 2 is more difficult. You said you worried you were drawing dead on the turn, but that's wrong. The only hand against which you're drawing dead is pocket tens; against anything else you have either 2 or 4 outs to a full house.

As a rule of thumb, you shouldn't fold a big two-pair on the turn for one more bet, even when there's a possible straight or flush. The exception is when the pot is small and you are fairly confident based on prior knowledge of your opponent that he has a better hand. (Fold only if both these criteria are satisfied.)

I think check-calling the turn is best, but that's debatable.

When the fourth diamond hits on the river, now you might want to bet out and fold to a raise. Your opponent won't raise you unless he has a fullhouse or an ace-high flush. Also -- and more important -- he might fold a hand that beats you, trip tens or a baby flush. Sure he'll probably call with something like that, but there's 9.5 bets in the pot. Why not take a shot at it? The pot is too big to check-fold on the river against an unknown player, and since you're planning to call a bet anyway, why not bet out yourself to get a small chance of taking the pot when your hand isn't good.

[Ed S.]

First hand,

Don't give ppl too much credit for being able to check-raise in a obvious situation. Alot of times unknown's or ppl who are just in there to play poker don't check raise alot unless with the nuts or something. Anyways for this first hand I think you are beat here but since you don't know this player look them up if you like and see what they have. Odds are you are beat. IF not now you know this person is capable of trying to put you off your hand. Also you now know that this person is str8 forward type of person who doesn't check-raise or so it seems. But yet this is only the first hand you have seen of this player showing down. Keep in mind that is if you call it and and get to see what they have.


2nd hand,


Yeah this hand and board is something you rather not see. With that said I think your pretty much dead here and I think you know that too. You didn't describe how BB is here so I take it he is typical and if that is true than your most certainly beat to trip 10s if not the flush. Might even lose to two pair here too. For this hand I would have to say if he bets you can safely fold. But with your hand 1 scenario it really isn't as clear cut since you don't know the player. You have a more debatable situation which can go either way.


All in all. In Hand 1, you can probably fold but looking this unknown up is probably a good idea. You might even win the pot still. Hand 2, you didn't describe the BB and what type of player they are but I take it they are typical and even not so I find it hard with what is on board that you are even close to being the winner here. Go ahead and fold if he bets.



Ed S.

[elysium]

hi truth
hand 1) you have a turn raise. the reason for the raise is because you have played perfectly up to this point in the hand, and while you don't necessarily like the sudden reversal by the LMP, you really don't like the sudden reversal with a player behind you left to act that a raise may drive out of the hand. this is important here truth because the SB has captured your LP rights by checking. if the SB had bet out and gotten called on the turn by the EP, a raise by you may have value, but truth, and this is important, in that instance if you were to raise for value it would be a close raise for value. yes, it would get more bets into the pot, but calling would have nearly the same effect on your ev. and in actuality, the greatest mathmetician in the world couldn't tell you whether or not calling or raising in that spot, produces the higher ev. remember the old fliecshman's commercial? "no deefarants."

no difference.

or was that "fit for a king!"?

anyway, in this case truth, according to me, you must raise the turn. the reasons are to win the pot right now with a raise; to get a free showdown on the river; to keep from being bluffed on the river; and to get that SB out of there so that you aren't raised on the river by the relative LP when you call the EP bet. in essence, to avoid being raised out of the pot by AT and JJ. or worse; by AT and A8. in other words, you raise on the turn in this marginal situation, not because of its questionable value, but rather because of how the raise enhances your opportunity to win the pot. and that's when you make these close bets truth.

now, after raising the turn OR NOT, on the river if all check to you (sometimes the MP can do you a favor and give you back your LP rights when he checks after the SB), you do not bet for value. granted, it's marginal, there may be a little value there for you, but if all check to you, don't you dare bet. this is exactly the type of bet we are instructed not to make. many reasons truth, and i'll admit it, i'm out gunned on this one. everyone will tell you to bet in this spot on the river if checked to. DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM. and this is the most i can do to get you not to make that bet. they're gonna come behind me, and tell you to bet. but don't you listen. i'm sure you'll remember what hfap and top has to say about this. them listen to. but don't listen to these others.

by the way, i like that look left on the river.

hand 2) on the turn, you have 12 to 1 or so to improve, and a clear call. tommy does auto-muck a lot, but i don't think he's mucking here.

you are getting nearly correct-ish odds. if you make this laydown, you will inspire these guys to take shots at you, and while you won't likely let them develop a rythym on you, they'll hit you for a tempo or so where you fold the winner and call with the loser. so, to avoid that, just call to keep them predictable. and you may have the winner.

on the river, you can fold this turkey. no one will be inspired to take shots at you when you fold on that thing. they know you have KK, true; but KK here is junk. awww, don't tell me you called and won. i don't like it truth. you should have folded on the river.

[34TheTruth34]

In both hands, I had the winner.

In the first hand, the opponent just flashed an ace (clubs, I think, definitely not diamonds) as he said good call.

Second hand, I checked the river without knowing what to do if he bet. But he checked behind. I flipped my hand over and he mucked.

I'm still not sure I like my play on these hands. Comments?